[ehider]

At the recent "HIDERFEST" event we got a chance to compare a pair of stock VMPS 626R's with a modified 626R version utilizing Danny's crossover modifications (GR Research).

During this event I did NOT tell anyone which speaker pair was the stock or modified varient. I wanted it to be a "true A/B blind comparison". Additionally, I did not add my own personal assessments of each speaker's performance at any time and served soley as the moderator. Each speaker was identified as "The first pair" and "The second pair". Each set of speakers were each placed in the same exact location during our comparions, approximately 20" from the floor on concrete stands. The location was determined through a lengthy process of room location nulls by Steve Rothermel for his new granite speaker models.

The Outcome - There was a 7 to 4 split on the preference to who preferred either of the speakers in this comparison. "The second speakers" were described as being "more refined" , "better balanced", "no-comparison", "clearly better imaging" and "not even close". The auditioners who preferred "The first speakers" used descriptions like "I liked the first", "it sounded more dynamic" and "it sounds more full and natural".


"The first  speakers" were stock 626R's and "The second speakers" were the modified 626R's.

Here is a detailed overview from listeners who provided written descriptions of their experience between these two speakers:


Listener position - Center .......................Audiophile for 20 years
 I preferred the modified over the stock version. Comparatively, the stock version sounded a bit sterile. The modified version had more weight and bloom without sacrificing the delineation of the stock version. The stock version also was a bit more "closed in" where the modified version gave a better sense of expanse.


Listener position - Left Center ...............Audiophile for 18 years

The second pair of speakers seemed more refined and balanced top to bottom. The bass seemed much more tuneful and the highs were much smoother. The first pair of speakers were more "mid-fi" sounding in comparison.


Listener position - rear center seat.........Audiophile for 6 years

The first model was pretty natural sounding and balanced to my ears. By balanced I mean both tonal balance but also in that first minute of the song I could not readily pick up anything wrong with the speaker soundwise...well balanced trade-offs with respect to overall design. The second model certainly seemed to exhibit more clarity from the upper midrange on up. Almost like it was a more efficient speaker getting more out of the amplifier -OR- highlighting the fact that it used ribbons by letting them stand out a bit too much.  Not sure but bass could have been a bit punchier or more well damped also.  This is where a longer listen would have made it more clear and why I said it may come down to listening preferences. Nit picks aside they were still nice speakers considering apparent level of performance for the price but after that brief demo my tastes lean towards the first model.


Listener position - Rear standing...............Audiophile for 22 years

Though I was located outside of the listening sweet spot, I recognized some appreciable differences that, nevertheless, were difficult to assess as one speaker being a clear cut winner over the other. Definitely a better balanced and "flatter" sound (again, where I was positioned) on the modded version. I also preferred the bass presentation on the modded 626. The stock version had a more laid-back upper midrange and this seemed to make them more polite - many people may prefer that balance. From there, I cannot give as much of an assessment as others situated properly and nearer the sweet spot. That's as best an input I can contribute.


Listener position -  Far left rear behind seats.......Audiophile for 7 years

I liked the first pair because they seemed to sound more natural and full as compared to the second pair.


Listener position - Rear center standing/kneeling.......Audiophile for 23 years

The first speakers had a more disconnected bass that was more "one notey" as compared to the second speakers. In terms of imaging, the second speakers conveyed a much larger and more coherent space as compared to the first speakers. The midrange of the second speakers was more integrated into both top and bottom frequencies as compared to the first speakers. In terms of high frequencies, the second pair sounded as if they were slightly "cleaner" and it was much harder to identify where the tweeter was as compared to the first speakers which made it very easy to point to the tweeters when you heard high frequencies. It is my opinion that the second speakers sound closer to "reference level high end speakers" as compared to the first speakers.

[Rob Babcock]

Not to sound like a retard, but do you mean 7 of 4 picked the modded speakers, or you you mean 7 of 11?  I am further confused by the fact that you list specific feedbacks for only six listeners.

Thanks for any clarification you can offer.

[MaxCast]

Rob, you are not a retard unless I am too
Not quite sure what 7 to 4 split means

[ctviggen]

How were the speakers tuned?  Did you level match them (i.e., figure out the level of the preamp so that the exact same SPL at the center position was the same for both speakers using the same material, preferably a noise like white or pink noise)?  Did the speakers have the same speaker wire?

[woodsyi]

I am curious.  What secret handshakes do I have to know to become a bona fide audiophile?  I have no idea when I became an audiophile or if I am one.  I have always enjoyed music but I didn't become a gearhead until I could afford them.......

[JoshK]

I noticed that the two, presumeably younger guys (going from years of audiophilism) liked the orig whereas the older gentlemen liked the modded.  This is probably because the younger guys still have their hearing!  

[Marbles]

Eric, brought my stock 626's speakers back from Hiderfest yesterday, along with the modded pair.  

I had a chance to listen to both full range.

My reference is a pair of RM40's.

Both speakers used the same speaker cable, we switched in and out the speakers.

Both speakers were set to the same spot on my pre-amp, and we didn't do any measuring to see if one was louder than the other.

I have a beautiful word doc at home (I'm at the office)  that details my thoughts.

I will try to give you some of my thoughts now.

The speakers were setup up on my nOrh subwoofers which are 24" tall.

We listened at 12' from the speakers and the speakers were inside and a few inches in front of my RM40's.  Because of the RM40's we decided not to pay attention to the lack of width in the soundstage.

First up were the stock speakers and they sounded nice. The pots were set to 1:00.  I played Mike Morgan and the Crawl and I liked what I heard.  Then I put on Jennifer Warnes, the Hunter CD and played cuts 1,2,8,and9.
Again I liked what I heard.  

We switched out speakers and the soundstage got bigger in every direction (couldn't help noticing it).  The bass really came alive, in fact I thought it was some of the better bass I had heard, and it made the stock speakers sound like they only played one note.

The bass crept up and colored the midrange and highs though.  Maybe it was the whole sound was too warm and colored and it was the bass creep that muddied the midrange a little.

Anyway switching back to the stock 626's, the bass was indeed of the one note variety (but enjoyable, just not nearly the quality of the modded pair).  The mids sounded uncolored , but disconnected a bit from the lows and the highs (which were also uncolored).

Conclusion.  having heard both I wasn't happy with either.  They both showed strengths and weakness's that told me they both could be a better speaker.

I think that VMPS has addressed it's major weakness with the new MLS cabinet and the megawoofers.  If it could make the drivers a bit more seemless it would be a great speaker.

BTW, the modded speakers were MUCH heavier than the stock ones and felt really really solid.  You would not think of wrapping your knuckles on them.

If I had to pick one speaker that I had a preference for, it would be the stock one.

My thoughts are that even though it did not have the bass of the modded unit, or the coherency, these are errors of ommission.  The colored toneality of the modded units midrange and highs are errors of commision and I can't put up with these as easily.

We then listened to the same cuts on my RM40's and they sounded effortless, seemless and toneally accurate.

[JoshK]

I don't own any 626s but I would agree with Rob that the errors he outlined with the stock unit are much preferrable IMO, and I would think much easier to deal with.  Considering that the unit is tuneable, I would imagine you can tune it to taste and probably get a lot more driver integration, might not be easy, might be time consuming but I bet it can be done.

[Marbles]

If these (stock 626's) were my main speakers, I would either XO them to a sub, or take advantage of the MLS cabinet upgrade special that Brian has and get the megawoofer at the same time.

Since mine are used as surround speakers in an HT enviornment where I XO them at between 50-70 HZ, I will not do anything.

While I don't know this with any certainty, I suspect that Brian knew of the bass weakness and took corrective action with the better braced cabinet and megawoofer.

[jackman]

Marbles,
Thanks for the feedback.  I can't say which types of errors are preferable, however, it's difficult to discount the fact that the modded speakers won in a blind test.  The comments also seemed to be very consistent and the tweeters never blew up as predicted.  

If the MLS cabinets improve the existing design, I would imagine they would do the same for the modded version.  Mark and company do make amazing cabinets.  I'm sure they will certainly look much better and be more solid.

Cheers,

J

[Marbles]

Marbles,

If the MLS cabinets improve the existing design, I would imagine they would do the same for the modded version.  Mark and company do make amazing cabinets.  I'm sure they will certainly look much better and be more solid.

Cheers,

J

Actually the MLS cabinets are better braced then the stock ones, but I doubt they are better braced then the modded ones.  In addition Danny used a sheet of Black hole #5 internally, so no, the newer cabinets would be a step down from the modded ones IMO, but a step up from the stock ones.  While they would help the bass of the stock speakers, all else being equal, they would not help the bass of the modded ones.

[Marbles]

Marbles,
Thanks for the feedback.  I can't say which types of errors are preferable, however, it's difficult to discount the fact that the modded speakers won in a blind test.  The comments also seemed to be very consistent and the tweeters never blew up as predicted.  


Cheers,

J

The tweeters stayed in the modded speakers the whole time without any smoke coming out  

I'm sure my listening was biased towards the stock 626's because my reference speakers have a similar sounding midrange and highs.

A reference the blind folks did not have.

When the modded speakers came in with a sound I was not familiar with in the midrange on either my 9.0's or my VMPS speakers, that sounded overly warm with a hint of muddiness on the (midrange) vocals of Somebody Somewhere (track 2 of JW - The Hunter)  I knew that either the    XO was not steep enough or the parts in the XO were coloring it.

I also suspect that the people in the blind listening at Hiderfest were not as familiar with the material played there or the associated equipment, as I am of the CD I was playing, and the system I was playing it on, and might have missed some subtleties that I was aware of.

[jackman]

Thanks Marbles.  I wish you could have listened to them blind, but logistically, it wasn't possible.  Either way, your feedback is appreciated.  I have no connection with either company and do not own any products from GR or VMPS (at the moment, other than a PR that I have not installed in a sub from GR), but at the very least, it appears the mods do not harm the speakers mechanically or sonically.  

Thanks,
Jack


PS- I am severely challenged when it comes to spelling and I'm fairly confident there are several misspelled words in this post as well as 99% of my older posts.  Hopefully, it doesn't distract from my comments (which are most likely grammatically incorrect!).

[tkp]

The modded speaker fixed a few things and introduced others.  One thing for sure is that it takes away is the adjustabillity of the stock version to suit one's taste.  This does not mean that the stock version is more neutral.  All it meant is that the L-PADs in the stock version allow it to be more flexible to some what counter act room placement (I don't if this is true for every one room but it is true in my house).  

Personally, I prefer the L-PAD if it is implemented correctly (high current stepped attennuator with quality resistors).  However, this is very expensive and might not be feasible.   Acoustic treatment is completely out of the question for me because my significant other is heavily into home decorating.

[Marbles]

One other thing, most of the people listening at Hiderfest were not in the sweet spot.

The off axis response of the modded version was better than the off axis response of the stock version.  

Most all of my listening was done in the sweet spot, or just behind the sweet spot.

Note 2:  The stands put my ears equal to the midrange, a bit lower than where I would want it, which would be more on level of the tweeter.  Eric enjoyed listening standing up behind the sweetspot, at the back of the room and I agree this was  good spot as well.

[Brian Cheney]

Current 626's with the mls cabinets are braced and about 20% heavier than the old style.  There is a new woofer, tweeter, and crossover.  A review of the latest version can be found at www.positive-feedback.com.

[Marbles]

Both sets of speakers used the FST tweeter.  

What is different in the new XO?  Are my midranges XO'd to the FST at 10Khz and the new ones at 7Khz?
Are the new XO's crossing the bass higher to the midrange?

Thanks

[TheChairGuy]

Hi ehider and everyone....this is a great and informative post.  However, I think better suited to Critic's Circle than here.  It's a bit too specific and, well critical, of both stock, modded and upgraded versions of VMPS 626R to fit in well here.

So, it's being moved...

[audiojerry]

just wanted to comment in general on quality and content of the posts by Eric and Marbles.

Thanks for all the time and effort - great job!

[bubba966]

I noticed that the two, presumeably younger guys (going from years of audiophilism) liked the orig whereas the older gentlemen liked the modded.  This is probably because the younger guys still have their hearing!  

That was exactly what I was thinking while reading that...