Bi-Wire or Jumpers

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DARTH AUDIO

Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« on: 27 Oct 2015, 05:27 pm »
I have the VR-35 speakers and have been using Bi-Wire cable. I'm looking at some new cables. Is there a difference between Bi-Wire and Jumpers? Is one better for sound quality, or are they the same? Any and all help is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Gary

es347

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #1 on: 27 Oct 2015, 07:56 pm »
..great question Gary.  My biwires bifurcate about 3ft from my VR5 Annies since the speaker jacks on the upper and lower cabinets are several feet apart.  For the life of me I can't think what difference it would make to simply land the single run cable on one cabinet's jacks and install a jumper.  Of course this just one of many things that perplex me  :lol:

rollo

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #2 on: 27 Oct 2015, 08:19 pm »
   Jumpers give you more options in Ga. selection and conductor material for those tweeters. You can try diangonal jumping as well. connect the poitive speaker lead to the tweeter positive terminal and the neg. speaker lead to the bass negative terminal . Then jump from positive to positive and Neg. to neg. An old Audioquest trick that just may surprise you it did me.


charles

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #3 on: 27 Oct 2015, 08:25 pm »
You can try diangonal jumping as well. connect the poitive speaker lead to the tweeter positive terminal and the neg. speaker lead to the bass negative terminal . Then jump from positive to positive and Neg. to neg.An old Audioquest trick that just may surprise you it did me. charles

And... what did you notice?

WGH

Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #4 on: 27 Oct 2015, 08:48 pm »
For my stereo, I have found that 10 or 11 AWG (either single or aggregate bi-wire) speaker wire is the sweet spot.
And the jumpers stay on with both configurations although I have found that the bi-wire with jumpers works best - one run on the tweeter, one run on the woofers.

Why you ask?
Because anything thinner than 11 AWG doesn't have enough oomph for the deepest bass. Of course the speaker rolls off above 40 Hz run any skinny wire you like but if the speaker goes real low like the VR-35 then you will probably hear a difference.

I used the rattle test while playing Mickey Harts "Temple Caves" from his Planet Drum CD, although I'll need a new test because my new windows no longer rattle.
Bi-wire - windows rattle
Single wire - no rattle

Wayne

leif8660

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #5 on: 27 Oct 2015, 09:07 pm »
..great question Gary.  My biwires bifurcate about 3ft from my VR5 Annies since the speaker jacks on the upper and lower cabinets are several feet apart.  For the life of me I can't think what difference it would make to simply land the single run cable on one cabinet's jacks and install a jumper.  Of course this just one of many things that perplex me  :lol:

The reason why a jumper does not sound nearly as good as a bi-wire cable is because there is no separation between the ground wire going to the bass crossover and the midrange/treble crossover.  As we have found many years ago, the bass signal modulates the weaker treble signal unless there are separate ground wires for both the  bass and treble.  We have done so many A/BX comparison test of single wire with a jumper vs bi-wire that we know what we are talking about. There is no comparison.

Albert Von Schweikert

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #6 on: 28 Oct 2015, 06:37 am »
Leif 8660 is correct. Bi-wiring  gives you more clarity, a larger sound stage, more detail with less treble distortion, and more depth. However, the speakers have to use physically seperated circuit boards, one for each frequency band, so that the inductor coils don't  bleed signal from bass coils to the midrange and tweeter coils on the circuit boards. Also, a single cable with a jumper is not sufficient - you need to use a properly designed bi-wire cable or alternately, two speaker cables run from each amplifier channel to the two pairs of binding posts on the speaker.

See John Atkinsons tests in Stereophile on the original B&W 801 speaker where he discovered that the inductors placed too closely on the circuit board actually caused crosstalk, modulation, and hence distortion into the midrange and tweeter from the woofer inductor coils. This same effect can occur when using a single cable with jumper.

Not all manufacturers can do everything perfectly!  In the case of circuit design,  we are The Masters Of The Universe. (Just kidding). Some types of bi-wire cables bundle the four conductors together, which creates cross talk and signal modulation inside the cable itself. The two pairs of conductors have to be specifically designed tp prevent the this effect.  Shielding  can work, but better yet, a specific winding geometry works best of all, according to engineers at Delphi Aerospace, the creators of the Master-Built cable products we now use exclusively.

By the way, did you know that filters are based on impedance, not frequency? That is why bass signals will not travel up a cable to a tweeter circuit, and vice versa. There is simply too much resistance (also known as impedance in alternating current circuits, i.e. musical sine wave signals). It's like pouring water on the side of a hill -- gravity (impedance) forces the water to to flow downhill, not uphill. As Albert Einstein once remarked, the simplest solution is often always the correct solution.

es347

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #7 on: 28 Oct 2015, 04:17 pm »
Leif 8660 is correct. Bi-wiring  gives you more clarity, a larger sound stage, more detail with less treble distortion, and more depth. However, the speakers have to use physically seperated circuit boards, one for each frequency band, so that the inductor coils don't  bleed signal from bass coils to the midrange and tweeter coils on the circuit boards. Also, a single cable with a jumper is not sufficient - you need to use a properly designed bi-wire cable or alternately, two speaker cables run from each amplifier channel to the two pairs of binding posts on the speaker.

See John Atkinsons tests in Stereophile on the original B&W 801 speaker where he discovered that the inductors placed too closely on the circuit board actually caused crosstalk, modulation, and hence distortion into the midrange and tweeter from the woofer inductor coils. This same effect can occur when using a single cable with jumper.

Not all manufacturers can do everything perfectly!  In the case of circuit design,  we are The Masters Of The Universe. (Just kidding). Some types of bi-wire cables bundle the four conductors together, which creates cross talk and signal modulation inside the cable itself. The two pairs of conductors have to be specifically designed tp prevent the this effect.  Shielding  can work, but better yet, a specific winding geometry works best of all, according to engineers at Delphi Aerospace, the creators of the Master-Built cable products we now use exclusively.

By the way, did you know that filters are based on impedance, not frequency? That is why bass signals will not travel up a cable to a tweeter circuit, and vice versa. There is simply too much resistance (also known as impedance in alternating current circuits, i.e. musical sine wave signals). It's like pouring water on the side of a hill -- gravity (impedance) forces the water to to flow downhill, not uphill. As Albert Einstein once remarked, the simplest solution is often always the correct solution.

..right you are Albert...the path of least resistance.  Seems I read that in EE 101...heh heh.  Thanks for taking time to explain the biwire thing.  I have two output jacks on my 601s: a 4 ohm and an 8 ohm.  My VR5 bass cabinet is 4 ohms and the M/T cabinet is 8...or do I have that backwards?  Anyway ideally I'd like to run two separate cables from the two sets of output jacks to the two sets of speaker jacks.  Not cheap unfortunately...sigh..

Albert Von Schweikert

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #8 on: 28 Oct 2015, 04:39 pm »
Hello ES347, from what I've heard from McIntosh, using two different taps at the same time on their autoformers works just fine!  Please let us know what happens.  Hopefully, you will find better sound quality.

BobRex

Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #9 on: 28 Oct 2015, 04:53 pm »
By the way, did you know that filters are based on impedance, not frequency? That is why bass signals will not travel up a cable to a tweeter circuit, and vice versa. There is simply too much resistance (also known as impedance in alternating current circuits, i.e. musical sine wave signals). It's like pouring water on the side of a hill -- gravity (impedance) forces the water to to flow downhill, not uphill. As Albert Einstein once remarked, the simplest solution is often always the correct solution.

Don't you think this is a little misleading?  While it's true that a filter works by increasing the impedance to a given signal, that impedance increases depending upon the frequency determined by the capacative or inductive reactance.  It's the frequency factor that separates reactance and it's resultant shifting impedance from straight resistance.

gme109

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #10 on: 28 Oct 2015, 10:01 pm »
The reason why a jumper does not sound nearly as good as a bi-wire cable is because there is no separation between the ground wire going to the bass crossover and the midrange/treble crossover.  As we have found many years ago, the bass signal modulates the weaker treble signal unless there are separate ground wires for both the  bass and treble.  We have done so many A/BX comparison test of single wire with a jumper vs bi-wire that we know what we are talking about. There is no comparison.

Are there certain exceptions to this rule, depending on the design of the speaker cable?

I currently have a pair of VR 35's, and I'm using with great success a single run of MG Audio's ribbon speaker cables with jumpers. The manufacture states that their speaker cable doesn't work well in a bi-wire configuration. "We do not recommend bi-wiring with Planus speaker wire because the wire’s topology is not designed for maximum performance in this configuration"

I'm inclined to believe the manufacture knows best about their speaker wire technology, but now I'm curious how much better the VR 35's might sound bi-wired with speaker cable designed for that purpose.

Any other Von Schweikert users using MG Audio speaker cables? Would love to hear some feedback on this matter.

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #11 on: 28 Oct 2015, 10:17 pm »
Are there certain exceptions to this rule, depending on the design of the speaker cable?

I currently have a pair of VR 35's, and I'm using with great success a single run of MG Audio's ribbon speaker cables with jumpers. The manufacture states that their speaker cable doesn't work well in a bi-wire configuration. "We do not recommend bi-wiring with Planus speaker wire because the wire’s topology is not designed for maximum performance in this configuration"

I'm inclined to believe the manufacture knows best about their speaker wire technology, but now I'm curious how much better the VR 35's might sound bi-wired with speaker cable designed for that purpose.

Any other Von Schweikert users using MG Audio speaker cables? Would love to hear some feedback on this matter.

There's a difference between what's best for their particular wire versus what's best for the speaker - meaning if you could find some other wires that otherwise had the same sonic signature of the MGs but were amenable to bi-wiring, that would sound better than with a single wire and a jumper using the MGs 8)

es347

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #12 on: 28 Oct 2015, 10:19 pm »
..not MGs but ribbons...me like

gme109

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #13 on: 28 Oct 2015, 10:20 pm »
..not MGs but ribbons...me like

Are you bi-wiring with them, or using jumpers?

gme109

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #14 on: 28 Oct 2015, 10:33 pm »
There's a difference between what's best for their particular wire versus what's best for the speaker - meaning if you could find some other wires that otherwise had the same sonic signature of the MGs but were amenable to bi-wiring, that would sound better than with a single wire and a jumper using the MGs 8)

I should have also mentioned that I have no doubt the manufacture of the VR35's knows what sounds best with their speakers. I was just wondering if there are exceptions to the rule? The MG Auido cables are such stelar performers for the money,  it's just unfortunate that they can't be bi-wired with good affect.

I'll have to do some experimenting with similar sounding cables that can be bi-wired, vs the single run of MG's with jumpers.

es347

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #15 on: 28 Oct 2015, 11:51 pm »
Are you bi-wiring with them, or using jumpers?

..biwire

kernelbob

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #16 on: 29 Oct 2015, 01:08 pm »
gme109, you can always use two sets of single run cables and attach both to one set of amp terminals.  Same result as using specifically configured biwire cables.

gme109

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #17 on: 29 Oct 2015, 01:58 pm »
gme109, you can always use two sets of single run cables and attach both to one set of amp terminals.  Same result as using specifically configured biwire cables.

Yes I'm aware of that option. The issue with the MG Audio cables that I'm using, has something to do with their design, whereby the manufacture doesn't recommend using them for bi-wiring. Can't remember for sure, but it may have something to do with capacitance.

gme109

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #18 on: 29 Oct 2015, 05:19 pm »
Is there a website for Masterbuilt cables? Would like to get more info on prices and products.

SundayNiagara

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Re: Bi-Wire or Jumpers
« Reply #19 on: 29 Oct 2015, 07:14 pm »
Is there a website for Masterbuilt cables? Would like to get more info on prices and products.

The info and pricing on these cables seems to be very secretive.