[JLM]

Was invited to a new audio club yesterday.  Going in I knew it would be C&C friendly.  The organizer/host is in his 30's, cheap, into vintage gear, convenience oriented, and a flipper type.  We met in the front room and where he had a Lepai amp and small $50 JBL bookshelves playing through his phone - a bit forward but pleasant enough at low volumes.  The main system had three examples of nice older speakers from Polk, Infinity, and Klipsch (sorry don't recall the models).  And he had Marantz, Sony, and Realistic vintage receivers (only 2 worked, and we only listened to the Marantz as a pre-amp).  He did use one of the new Crown 1500 power amps (my first chance to hear one).  He also had an older Technics turntable with Grado Gold cartridge but we didn't listen to it.  His room was a bit small and he was set up on the wide side of the room so listening was done against the opposite wall.

He did have a 32 year old Technics CDP (was amazed it still worked).  But being cheap he doesn't buy music (only "rents" it from Spotify and had a trial membership to Tital) so does 99% of his listening that way from his phone via a wireless connection to tiny DAC (sorry again don't know the brand/model) that connected to the Marantz by a 3.5 mm cable.  I objected to the use of such poor sources (even though I'm guilty of the same) based on my biases and because the amp/speakers were such good performers.  Note that I'm old enough to have bought the Marantz when new so have little interest in returning to what I've moved on from.

Afterwards it struck me that this lossy/wireless approach is the natural way for 20/30 somethings to enter audio: uses his phone; saves $$$ on music; and are used to the lossy formats.  I congratulate him for the effort to research/invest in better amplification and speakers, but being a young family guy wonder if he (or his peers) will ever move beyond lossy/wireless.  Funny but he and some of the other younger ones there laughed at using earbuds while we were listening to the same type of source.  I suggested a Dragonfly DAC with BlueJean USB cable connected to his laptop but he objected to spending that much.  I'm old, but am I that far out of it?

[mcgsxr]

I don't think age has anything to do with it.

It is the perverse love of audio reproduction that puts us all way off center in my experience.

Friends of mine have large music collections, and are quite happy to stream lossy files to outdoor speakers, or bluetooth speakers for background music and having music on.

It seems to be that only those of us for whom listening to music IS what we are doing, vs doing something and having music on that care about quality of source and signal chain.

I admit to streaming and using my headphone setup on the deck.  But for serious listening I am in front of the big rig, FLAC playing.  And I enjoy that a lot.

My kids will listen to music, but only while also reading, surfing the net, or playing.  We will see what comes of it as they age.

[Phil A]

I agree that age has nothing to do with it.  I have a friend in his late 30s that I met around 13 years ago in a stereo store where a friend was working.  My friend and he were a bit at odds (typical sales guy vs. an amateur musician who knows what real instruments sound like).  So I rescued him and he ended up buying a receiver from the store for HT, used MMGs (he still has these) and a Jolida tube amp.  The kid was being responsible trying to just spend his tax refund.  He went through some stuff and is getting back on his feet again and has a WD media player I gave him many years back (they advertised it as WMA compatible and after a year and ripping things I tried it and read the manual and they give you conversion software which converts them to 320kbps MP3s but it only plays them back at 128kbps and I listened to two songs on my DAC and put it away) and he uses it but knows its limitations and as he gets funds to spend he asks questions.

[Phil A]

Also not that long ago a guy on another forum asked me to rip his SACDs so he could play them on his DAC ($6k PS Audio).  He sent me a hard drive and then the discs and I met him (for the first time) at the Capital Audiofest and returned his discs and hard drive.  Based on the music he had, I would have guessed he was around my age but he was probably 30 years younger give or take (which of course makes me 39 )

[Early B.]

Any audiophile caught streaming lossy music files is subject to being pummeled repeatedly in the groin by an NFL field goal kicker.

 

[srb]

Any audiophile caught streaming lossy music files is subject to being pummeled repeatedly in the groin by an NFL field goal kicker.

Whew, I guess I'm exempt!  I only stream lossy continuous Internet radio streams 

[RDavidson]

Any audiophile caught streaming lossy music files is subject to being pummeled repeatedly in the groin by an NFL field goal kicker.

  Thank goodness I'm not an audiophile, though some would think I am, based on my gear and high interest in most things audio. I'll guard my groin just to be sure.

[HAL]

If he has Tidal, that has a lossless streaming mode.  The new Tidal HiFi stream will be using MQA HiRez once it is online, but already streams CD quality lossless.

Not all streaming is lossy at this point.  I still want album art or CD cover art, so would not be the only way I would get music.

[mresseguie]

I don't think listening to lossy via wifi is sacrilege, but I'm not really an audiophile. I like music. I greatly prefer it is played on good quality equipment and high quality speakers, but I listen to a lot of lossy in the background while I do other things. I have Tidal, and I'm very happy with it so far.

Just in case, I've hired a trio of betel nut chewing, Kaoliang drinking Taiwanese thugs (liumang) to protect me. One never knows where Early B. is lurking.

[Phil A]

One never knows where Early B. is lurking.

Yes - be careful - I've seen his work - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjd63o0sbio

 

[JLM]

Here I am worried about lossy versus Redbook and you guys attempt at humor are below sophomoric 

Didn't want to focus on age differences, just the difference in generational approaches/perspectives.  He's committed to streaming (but I've convinced him to switch to Tital).  Compared to spending $$$$ buying hundreds of albums, his $20/month "rent" payment provides access to a huge library.

Like you Mark, I'll admit to enjoying casual listening via lossy streaming on my main rig and via a Logitech UE smart radio.

Reminds me of the classic audiophile paradox: if trapped on an island would you rather have a killer system that could make 5 albums sound great (but the rest like crap) or a lesser system that would make everything sound OK.

That much I can understand (a new paradigm for me).  What I wonder about is the use of lossy for serious listening. 

[Odal3]

So did you hear any setups that you liked?

I have no shame listening to spotify or similar streaming services. A good recording is a good recording and the streaming services makes it so easy and convienient to discover and explore new music. Lossless is of course better and I listen to that a lot as well, but to me it is all about system match. If you're on a cheap and cheerful budget the higher level of detail of the hi rez formats may not be as noticeable as listening to some of the high end systems showcased on for example RMAF or in dedicated listening rooms with low noise floor . What I'm getting at is that everyone has to start somewhere and if you cant easily tell the difference in your system without conducting blind abx testing, the time is probably better spent enjoying what you have and progressively invest the money in system and room upgrades until this may or may not become visible. Sounds like your friend is doing exactly that - having a great time with exploring different audio setups.

Having said that, I agree that there are some cheap dacs etc that will make a nice improvements on both Lossless and lossy. Especially compared to the dacs in many cell phones .

And if you haven't guessed it already, I'm in my mid 30.

[RDavidson]

Do you consider a person who listens to lossy formats a serious listener? If not, why?

It seems to me that you're trying to make some sort of correlation between serious listening and format type, with some pretension added-in. Fact is, people will listen to whatever suits their needs and budget.

If you told us this guy had a very decent $10k setup, but did his "serious listening" via lossy, then I can see an issue - ie Not hearing the difference between lossy and lossless despite having a system that should reveal such ; Or worse, preferring lossy. But this is clearly not the case. The guy has a modest setup, and apparently has a modest budget for buying/renting music. Regardless, he's enjoying what he has for now, and maybe when he has more money he'll get better gear and music formats to listen to. Didn't we all kind of start out like this?

My dad had a nasty cheap Sound Design system. It didn't keep me from enjoying my tapes and records as a kid. In fact, it probably played a key role in how/why I'm in this hobby today.

[Whitestix]

Call me a heretic, but I have had pricey systems, but have since gone cheap and cheerful with a custom tube preamp, Emotiva UPA 500 (?) and home-made Linkwitz LXmini's and have never enjoyed music as much as I do right now, at 10% of the value of my former reference system.  I have compared lossy formats to Redbook recordings through my Jolida and Schiit DACs off an external HD and can seldom find any audiophiles who notice the difference, including myself.  I had MOG back in the day and it was wonderful, but it went away so I subscribed to Spotify, mostly listening to jazz.  I stream it from my iMac to my Music Fidelity M3i int. amp and ELAC/Dali monitors via the very fine Mass Fidelity Relay BT device and it sounds wonderful to my ears, truly.  In a remote location, like my bedroom, it is dream come true.  I have 800 LPs and a SOTA vacuum TT, about the same number of CD's played on the wonderful Oppo 103, and 500GB on music on my music server, and I swear I listen to Spotify 90% of the time.  Why?   Because of its large selection of music and the fact that it sounds just fine to my 62 year old years.  Your mileage may vary.  Spotify just makes it too easy not to have music on all the time.  I have a little Polaris BT speaker unit for my patio that sounds pretty darn fine for $50!   I got off the high-end treadmill a year ago and have never been happier!  I have learned to pay attention to the music, not the gear.  Cheers, Whitest

[RDavidson]

You bring up another great point Whitestix.

I listen to Spotify quite a bit too (as I work from home). If I hear a song that I own on CD via Spotify, I can quite easily hear the loss in fidelity. To me it comes across as general flatness, not as much spatial information, lack of complete texture, and dynamics and bass lack full impact. But, if I listen to music via Spotify that I'm NOT familiar with or don't own in a better format, it can sound pretty satisfying on its own...as I don't really know what I'm missing. On that note, if I hear something I really like on Spotify, I am more likely to buy the music in a better format, so I can hear it in its entirety. This is probably where the typical consumer and I diverge.

It all goes back to the old adage that one doesn't know what one doesn't know. Thankfully there are services like Tidal, though they really ought to lower their price a bit. 2x the price of Spotify for Tidal seems steep to me, and I can easily afford it. If I feel that way, I don't see how Tidal stands a chance with the audience it needs to focus on (like the OP's example).

[rajacat]

I'm in another camp. The only time I can handle lossy format is when I'm listening in the car where extraneous noise make quality audio reproduction difficult. In general, I only listen to music at home and on a very good system. I have no need to be listening to music all day long. I've found that I appreciate good music more if I'm not listening to it all the time. . Peace and quite is nice too.
I'm surprised that you don't appreciate the sound quality that would be available with your nice vinyl setup more than lossy format audio. Maybe its more trouble to mess with the turntable but I find the ritual of choosing the album and placing it on the turntable gets me into the listening mood whereas if the music is on all time I don't listen to it with as much concentration and appreciation.

[Phil A]

I'm in another camp. The only time I can handle lossy format is when I'm listening in the car where extraneous noise make quality audio reproduction difficult.

I do the same.  I had a bunch of 320kbps MP3s from an old iPod and my USB port in the car plays them.  I have a 64gb thumb drive and room for plenty more on it and I have about 5,000 songs.

[JLM]

After vinyl, cassettes, and CD's I'm very happy with the convenience of ripped music.  Seems like it would take quite a while to develop a similar library.

This guy I'm speaking of had a turntable, but a small vinyl library, so understandably he's not interested in improving it's sound.  But convenience is very important to him, so another reason not to go to the turntable.

I'm hoping to arrange for him to bring his Spotify/Tidal equipped laptop to my place next month to have a better system to compare versus my ALAC files.

I've always been the buy, not rent kind of guy.  And am trying not to be elitist, just the best balance of gear to maximize investment.

Frankly I liked either of his sources with any of the three speakers we listened to better than the most of much more expensive gear I heard the day before at my regular audio club meeting.  Just wondering how much the Lossy/wireless/super cheap DAC combination was handcuffing the rest of the system.

When shopping for gear I seek high resolution (detail, timbre, and imaging) not pure detail, because it can make lots of good music hard to enjoy (wart revealing).

So is it the consensus that lossy is worthwhile tradeoff for C&C systems?  How about wireless signal transmission?  How about using an iPhone DAC?

[Whitestix]

You bring up another great point Whitestix.

I listen to Spotify quite a bit too (as I work from home). If I hear a song that I own on CD via Spotify, I can quite easily hear the loss in fidelity. To me it comes across as general flatness, not as much spatial information, lack of complete texture, and dynamics and bass lack full impact. But, if I listen to music via Spotify that I'm NOT familiar with or don't own in a better format, it can sound pretty satisfying on its own...as I don't really know what I'm missing. On that note, if I hear something I really like on Spotify, I am more likely to buy the music in a better format, so I can hear it in its entirety. This is probably where the typical consumer and I diverge.

It all goes back to the old adage that one doesn't know what one doesn't know. Thankfully there are services like Tidal, though they really ought to lower their price a bit. 2x the price of Spotify for Tidal seems steep to me, and I can easily afford it. If I feel that way, I don't see how Tidal stands a chance with the audience it needs to focus on (like the OP's example).

Sir, you and I are one the same sheet of music.  I have bought a bunch of CD's in the past few years after hearing one cut on the local FM jazz station, only to find that the cut they played was clearly the best of the CD.  Every month, I get JazzTimes and Downbeat and I now audition as many of the reviewed recordings as are available via Spotify before I decide to buy the CD.  I do think CD's have more ambience and extension than Spotify streams, but hearing the full recordings first on Spotify allows me to make more reasoned purchases.  The march of technology will tamp down the price of increasingly high-quality music streams in the future.  'Tis the future as seen through my crystal ball.

[charmerci]

As I live the C&C audio lifestyle, in this case, I would bring my JRiver laptop with my ODAC and my KabelDiret cable (or whatever you have around) and feed it into his system just to show him the improvement in sound that he could get for not much more money.