[Tyson]

Maybe Pez & Tyson should start an online review publication called "The Honest Audiophile".  That will most certainly weed through the people that have some balls. 

Maybe Jason will but I won't.  If there were gear out there that was super-amazing-awesome that I could lust after and try to save for to have at home, maybe.  But there just isn't.  If going to 10 years of RMAF and having a ton of crazy audio buddies locally has taught me anything, it's that there's an upper limit (a ceiling) to what's actually possible for Hi Fi Audio to reproduce.  And it's not all that much higher than what people with modest but good quality systems already have. 

Part of the problem is that reviewers have led us to believe that if we could just manage to swing buying a "cost no object" or "no compromise" component or system, that the heavens will open and the angels will sing to us.  And that's a bunch of bullshit.  The difference between a modest but good system and a 'cost-no-object-no-compromise' system is maybe 10% or 15%.  Spending $80,0000 on speakers to get that small level of improvement is stupid.  But the whole audio industry has us jacked up, trying to somehow find thousands and thousands of dollars to spend on stuff that in reality makes a (at best) modest improvement. 

We've lost the concept of "ENOUGH".  At what point is your system good enough?  At what point is your level of enjoyment enough?  At what point do you stop bleeding cash and say enough?  For myself, the answer to those questions is "Now".

[schw06]

Maybe Jason will but I won't.  If there were gear out there that was super-amazing-awesome that I could lust after and try to save for to have at home, maybe.  But there just isn't.  If going to 10 years of RMAF and having a ton of crazy audio buddies locally has taught me anything, it's that there's an upper limit (a ceiling) to what's actually possible for Hi Fi Audio to reproduce.  And it's not all that much higher than what people with modest but good quality systems already have. 

Part of the problem is that reviewers have led us to believe that if we could just manage to swing buying a "cost no object" or "no compromise" component or system, that the heavens will open and the angels will sing to us.  And that's a bunch of bullshit.  The difference between a modest but good system and a 'cost-no-object-no-compromise' system is maybe 10% or 15%.  Spending $80,0000 on speakers to get that small level of improvement is stupid.  But the whole audio industry has us jacked up, trying to somehow find thousands and thousands of dollars to spend on stuff that in reality makes a (at best) modest improvement. 


We've lost the concept of "ENOUGH".  At what point is your system good enough?  At what point is your level of enjoyment enough?  At what point do you stop bleeding cash and say enough?  For myself, the answer to those questions is "Now".

Tyson for President

[goskers]

Maybe Jason will but I won't.  If there were gear out there that was super-amazing-awesome that I could lust after and try to save for to have at home, maybe.  But there just isn't.  If going to 10 years of RMAF and having a ton of crazy audio buddies locally has taught me anything, it's that there's an upper limit (a ceiling) to what's actually possible for Hi Fi Audio to reproduce.  And it's not all that much higher than what people with modest but good quality systems already have. 

Part of the problem is that reviewers have led us to believe that if we could just manage to swing buying a "cost no object" or "no compromise" component or system, that the heavens will open and the angels will sing to us.  And that's a bunch of bullshit.  The difference between a modest but good system and a 'cost-no-object-no-compromise' system is maybe 10% or 15%.  Spending $80,0000 on speakers to get that small level of improvement is stupid.  But the whole audio industry has us jacked up, trying to somehow find thousands and thousands of dollars to spend on stuff that in reality makes a (at best) modest improvement. 

We've lost the concept of "ENOUGH".  At what point is your system good enough?  At what point is your level of enjoyment enough?  At what point do you stop bleeding cash and say enough?  For myself, the answer to those questions is "Now".

Great post Tyson!!

I don't chastise anyone who seeks the last few percent as I have done this myself.  Whatever makes someone happy  is what I feel.  My current stance is user friendliness and good sound.  When I do have time to listen I want to relax and enjoy.

[johzel]

Tyson . . . very well stated.  We should have a "Like" button similar to Facebook.    (guess we do)

[DaveC113]

Maybe Jason will but I won't.  If there were gear out there that was super-amazing-awesome that I could lust after and try to save for to have at home, maybe.  But there just isn't.  If going to 10 years of RMAF and having a ton of crazy audio buddies locally has taught me anything, it's that there's an upper limit (a ceiling) to what's actually possible for Hi Fi Audio to reproduce.  And it's not all that much higher than what people with modest but good quality systems already have. 

Part of the problem is that reviewers have led us to believe that if we could just manage to swing buying a "cost no object" or "no compromise" component or system, that the heavens will open and the angels will sing to us.  And that's a bunch of bullshit.  The difference between a modest but good system and a 'cost-no-object-no-compromise' system is maybe 10% or 15%.  Spending $80,0000 on speakers to get that small level of improvement is stupid.  But the whole audio industry has us jacked up, trying to somehow find thousands and thousands of dollars to spend on stuff that in reality makes a (at best) modest improvement. 

We've lost the concept of "ENOUGH".  At what point is your system good enough?  At what point is your level of enjoyment enough?  At what point do you stop bleeding cash and say enough?  For myself, the answer to those questions is "Now".

There's a lot of truth to that, but just to play devil's advocate I can modify my WRX to keep up with or beat dedicated sports cars that cost many times it's price. But that doesn't really make my WRX it's equal... there's something to be said for designs unrestrained by budget and only limited by the imagination. It allows designers much more freedom to do whatever they please and often leads to technological advancement. I think it's great some people can afford to purchase these over-the-top systems and allow the designers the luxury of continuing to work on advancing the state of the art rather than simply engineering to a price point.

A perfect example is the Pioneer S-1EX speakers I'm listening to right now. This speaker results from the freedom Andrew Jones was given to design an nearly $100k speaker, it is a version of it that is scaled down and made more affordable. But without the freedom to design the TAD Reference 1s the Pioneer S-1s wouldn't be the same speaker, probably not nearly as good.

On a different topic, the reason this is going on is because people have the money to buy big systems and small systems, the middle is largely out of the hobby. This is a completely different game vs 20 years ago, and it's a reflection of our society and not necessarily the industries fault. You have to understand people in the industry are desperately trying to appeal to what people want and make that item for them, it's not the industry that is dictating what's for sale. For instance, I was recently talking to a gentleman that makes amps in the 6-figure range and he said he only made the top-end crazy-expensive amps because his market demanded it. The fact is, what's going on in audio is a mirror of what's happening in our society. And it's not just audio... any luxury industry is facing the exact same issues.

[Bill Baker]

Dave pretty much said what I was going to. It's hard to blame an industry for prices when it's the consumer that dictates what sells and how high the ceiling is.
Audio.is a hobby. No different than wanting the best cars, over the top house or even a $50k watch. The differences are in the fine details. I dont think this will ever change for any luxury industry which is what high end audio is....a luxury. Some want and can afford the best. It's been this way since the beginning of time.
What I don't like to see is when consumers complain about the price of luxury items. There always has been and always will.be several tiers of product in every industry.  I'd like to have a Hummer but my budget keeps me in a Jeep but I don't think it's the automotive industry's fault that I can't afford a Hummer.
We all buy or build what we can afford.

[Tyson]

Bill and Dave, I appreciate your perspective, but it's not one that I share.

[jtwrace]

Dave pretty much said what I was going to. It's hard to blame an industry for prices when it's the consumer that dictates what sells and how high the ceiling is.
Audio.is a hobby. No different than wanting the best cars, over the top house or even a $50k watch. The differences are in the fine details. I dont think this will ever change for any luxury industry which is what high end audio is....a luxury. Some want and can afford the best. It's been this way since the beginning of time.
What I don't like to see is when consumers complain about the price of luxury items. There always has been and always will.be several tiers of product in every industry.  I'd like to have a Hummer but my budget keeps me in a Jeep but I don't think it's the automotive industry's fault that I can't afford a Hummer.
We all buy or build what we can afford.

High cost doesn't mean quality or better.  Sorry.  In fact, in this hobby, it's usually the opposite.  It's total shit and overpriced. 

[Bill Baker]

I certainly agree that high price does not [always] equal higher quality.

[DaveC113]

High cost doesn't mean quality or better.  Sorry.  In fact, in this hobby, it's usually the opposite.  It's total shit and overpriced. 

Agreed, but that shouldn't condemn the entire industry. You're painting with too broad a brush I think...

And Tyson, I also see the need for society to curb consumption, reduce pollution, move toward sustainable agriculture, etc. but there needs to be a balance. Personally, I feel the balance is pretty far off but that's how it is right now. Condemning the audio industry for the public's buying habits and our failing economic system isn't realistic.

Then there's always perspective... I mean, compared to flying jets as a hobby even the largest audio system is peanuts.

[Tyson]

I'm not talking about rich people, I'm talking about average joe's, and the desire for  the average joe to have some of these cost no object pieces of gear.  The question, to me, is "what does that get you"?  The answer, at least as far as I see it is "not much". 

[TomS]

I don't chastise anyone who seeks the last few percent as I have done this myself.  Whatever makes someone happy  is what I feel.  My current stance is user friendliness and good sound.  When I do have time to listen I want to relax and enjoy.

Exactly where I am too Joel, in terms of priorities. I've been down all those roads. I scored speakers I never thought I'd own, then jumped on the convenience of an LIO, and easy access to great music with an Aries, and have been rewarded with very good (enough) sound and a system I can enjoy whenever I turn it on. I'm probably not quite done just yet thanks to allure of the new VR120, but the chase is certainly much less compelling now.

[goskers]

I'm not talking about rich people, I'm talking about average joe's, and the desire for  the average joe to have some of these cost no object pieces of gear.  The question, to me, is "what does that get you"?  The answer, at least as far as I see it is "not much".

The bigger problem to me is about what we are arguing.  Rarely are we ever discussing data based facts.  With so much of the talk being subjective we are bound to go no where and will solve nothing in the journey.  With no defined criteria to judge against we will continue to speak in circles.  Some get tired of this and decide it's time to get off the ride.  Others jump on to see where it will take them.

[Tyson]

The bigger problem to me is about what we are arguing.  Rarely are we ever discussing data based facts.  With so much of the talk being subjective we are bound to go no where and will solve nothing in the journey.  With no defined criteria to judge against we will continue to speak in circles.  Some get tired of this and decide it's time to get off the ride.  Others jump on to see where it will take them.

I vehemently agree with you!  Haha.  I think part of the problem is that back in the 50's and 60's, there were a ton of people that would build kits and had at least a passing familiarity with electronics and design options/choices.  So they made better informed decisions.  Nowadays it's all mysterious black boxes that produce sound "somehow".  That collective wisdom has been lost and it's too bad because I think that could have prevented a lot of the ills that hifi audio has now.

[orientalexpress]

I learn long time ago,i don't know who said this "trying to enjoy what you have instead of going after something you can't have otherwise you can't never have enough" same thing apply to this hobby.

[James Romeyn]

If there was such thing as an audio saint, it would be Tyson. 

[JerryM]

 

I'm with Tyson. 

[Tyson]

If there was such thing as an audio saint, it would be Tyson. 

And if there is such a thing as an audio sinner it would be Pez!  Hahahahaha 

But thank you   And it was great seeing you at the show and shooting the sh!t even if just for a little bit.

 

I'm with Tyson. 

I literally LOL'd 

I hope my message is not coming across as defeatist.  If anything I think it's hopeful - if you have a moderately good system already, you should just sit back and enjoy it!  That new cable or DAC or conditioner or more expensive speaker or whatever, it's not going to make you any happier.  Think about it.  You've been swapping gear for years now.  Are you fundamentally happier now than you were 5 years ago?  Probably not!  And if you are not, why on earth do you think any future swaps or acquisitions will make you happier?  Stop.  Just Stop. 

Be joyous and grateful for the amazing system you already have.  You already have something the vast majority of people will never have, just sit back and revel in that knowledge.  Stop reading the audio press.  Stop reading other people's opinions.  Your level of happiness and satisfaction will be much higher if you do, I promise you. 

[DaveC113]

I'm not talking about rich people, I'm talking about average joe's, and the desire for  the average joe to have some of these cost no object pieces of gear.  The question, to me, is "what does that get you"?  The answer, at least as far as I see it is "not much".

Ah, shopping addiction... definitely a huge societal issue, but nobody's fault but the addict. Most people are to a degree, I am...  We need to consume to survive, but again it's a question of balance.

Honestly there's nothing wrong with pursuing one's interests and hobbies. If I never delved into the realm of hifi improvements I wouldn't be where I am now. Autos are ridiculously expensive and if I didn't blow a ton of cash on them I wouldn't have opened a welding and auto shop, and I might not have gotten my engineering degree, and well, it goes on. To some point my interests and hobbies define who I am and have shaped my life. I think there are more important things than saving cash, namely doing what you want to do with your life. I hope that money will follow. I mean, that Mr Money Mustache forum is full of folks who hate their jobs and are just counting down the years until retirement. FUCK THAT!! That's living like an indentured servant.

For me being Buddhist it's a question of balance. I've gone a couple years without making audio upgrades and until I needed a reference for my job I had the same system for 10 years making incremental improvements that didn't cost me much. Even though I'm more of a DIY guy and won't spend the cash on most commercial audio stuff I still enjoy going to shows and experiencing all the amazing systems. Interest in hobbies comes and goes, no need to condemn it just because interest is waning right now. Maybe later you'll feel like doing something different, maybe you'll never change a thing... either way you can still go to audio shows and just have fun talking to your friends and hearing different systems with no intention of spending any money.

I can agree the last couple percent of performance costs a fortune, for most definitely not worth it. 

[Early B.]

- if you have a moderately good system already, you should just sit back and enjoy it!  That new cable or DAC or conditioner or more expensive speaker or whatever, it's not going to make you any happier.  Think about it.  You've been swapping gear for years now.  Are you fundamentally happier now than you were 5 years ago?  Probably not!  And if you are not, why on earth do you think any future swaps or acquisitions will make you happier?  Stop.  Just Stop. 

Don't forget -- trading out gear is a huge part of the fun of being an audiophile. It's the thrill of the hunt that we enjoy more than the music itself. That's the reason we're called, "audiophiles" instead of "musicphiles."