[chgolatin2]

Ok here it goes, I am looking at a few options.  The Jolida 801, $1999 the Rogue Cronus Magnum II $2499 Ayon Scorpion $2800 (reduced priced) Cayin A-55TP $1795 Cayin A-88T $2125.  I like the fact that the Rogue Cronus and the Cayin A 55TP has a built in phono stage.  The Rogue Cronus Magnum II impressed me when I had the chance to listen to it yesterday, very nice tube amp.  But I've been a fan of Jolida products myself; I presently have a lil FX10 modded by Rich Singerman out of California, what a great lil gem.  Love it!  It's in my master bedroom paired with PSB speakers.  Since I have a set of von schweikert speakers called the VR2's I need something with a more power to run those babies.  I currently use a Peachtree Audio iDecco for the VR2's but I want a nice tube amp to use instead.  I also have a the Onyx Rocket RS250MKII and the PSB Image B25 with upgraded crossovers on both bookshelf speakers.  I use the FX10 to run both bookshelf speakers.  However, I need a bit more power to run the Rocket speakers but no biggie.  My main concern is my VR2 speakers that I listen to these on daily basis.  My budget falls between the $1500 up to $3000 mark, so I have narrowed it down to tube amps above and I am leaning to the following brands, Rogue, Jolida or the Cayin being the last option.  Sadly I haven't auditioned the Cayin or the Ayon tube amps but according to my research nobody has anything bad to say about them...  The one's that I am personally familiar with is the Rogue and Jolida brand...  So it’s a toss up between the Jolida 801 and the Rogue Cronus Magnum II but suggestion and guidance would be greatly appreciated… Thanks~ 

[rpf]

I own the original Cronus Magnum and haven't heard the other amps. By reputation the Jolida/Cayin are good for the money but the Cronus punches well above it's price point. You seem to have answered your own question however.

The Cronus Magnum can take everything from EL34s, to KT120s (including my favorite the KT66: the purest toned and best balanced pentode/kinkless tetrode tube for the Cronus, IMO - and I've tried them all). It has the most power at up to 100wpc, has a phono stage (improved in the CII) that you say is a consideration, and has a superb track record for reliability and customer service. I don't think the last can be equally said for the Chinese amps. I like the fact that the Cronus is made in the US.

The Cronus II has been improved sound-wise over the original (lower noise floor among other things) and can be even further improved if you upgrade the fuses and the small tubes (to NOS: the difference in resolution is significant). Raytheon/RCA 12AU7 black plates are still available at reasonable prices (and the three 12AU7s make for the most improvement).

[JakeJ]

I'll put my vote in the Rogue camp.  I have heard and/or owned both Rogue and Jolida and the Rogue was far better to my ears.

Just out of curiosity what is the efficiency rating on all three speakers you mentioned?  Do any of the three have a priority (play the primary role)?

[chgolatin2]

I'll put my vote in the Rogue camp.  I have heard and/or owned both Rogue and Jolida and the Rogue was far better to my ears.

Just out of curiosity what is the efficiency rating on all three speakers you mentioned?  Do any of the three have a priority (play the primary role)?

The VR2 are rated at 87...  Onyx are rated a bit lower... 

[sunnydaze]

IMO,  you need at least 75wpc for proper authority,  control,  torque and ease.   100wpc is better.   My vote is with Rogue.   My Atlas Magnum w/ KT120 power tubes is one gutsy amp, yet sufficiently refined to allow immersion in the music. Solid American build,  and great support  from the friendly folks at Rogue right here in PA.

[Freo-1]

I would look at Music Reference RM9 as well.  It's 100.watts a channel, and has poit to point wiring.  May need to look at used, but it's a most excellent amp.

[RDavidson]

I once owned the Cayin A50T : The older brother of the A55T. It is a very nice amp, with what I'd call the "classic" EL34 tube amp sound. It paired well with my Monitor Audio RS6's, which have a fast and energetic quality. The combo had great synergy.

With that said, I'd go for the Rogue. I've never listened to or owned anything from them, but their reputation speaks volumes. There's a lot to be said for US built and US supported gear too, as sunnydaze said earlier.

[opnly bafld]

I'd go for the Rogue........

I wish they would mount everything on the top plate, I don't care for the quicksand look. 

[JLM]

I had a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium Integrated a year ago (Stereophile 2014 class A rated, $3,300 MSRP, 40 wpc), their best model:

- solid/quality/modern build with lots of safety/convenience/flexibility features (good for tube newbies)
- lots of tube options (I rolled the following output tubes: EL34, KT66, KT77, KT88, KT120, and 6550 - my favorite)
- street price slightly less than MSRP
- phono pre is an option
- bass was tight on my F3 = 25 Hz speakers, had a degree of tube palpability (not enough for it to get old or be too much of a good thing)

I ran this with my 100 wpc solid state system for months but in the end sold it (not much better than my solid state and it had a higher resale).  And I'm the type to drift in and out to listen during the day and so the class D are easier to live with.  Besides I updated earlier this year to a DAC/pre/headphone amp and so was able to sell my pre-amp.

[Syrah]

Don't forget the Dodd 120s if any come up used.

[sunnydaze]

Having owned both the Dodd 120's and Music Reference RM9 mk2, I can also heartily recommend them.  Both are great amps.  Never should have sold the Dodds......fast, slammin and clear with huge soundstage.  Very exciting amps.

However, I do believe the OP wants to go with an integrated, so perhaps the recs should be targetted at that?     

I also owned PrimaLuna Dilaogue 2 integrated.  Another good one, if enough power.  For me, and in my experience, on 87db speakers and below, 40 wpc is definitely not enough.  Oh, it will get loud enough.  It's not only about volume.  It's about grip and control and scale and ease and speed, and opening up a speaker such that the soundstage produced matches its potential.  IMO, you need power to do that on speakers 87 and below.  Generally speaking, with 40wpc I would not go below a 90db speaker, maybe 92.

So I don't understand these recs in the 40 wpc range.........     

[Escott1377]

Not familiar w/ the pieces you mentioned, but I was looking at this unit prior to purchasing a pair of mono blocs that fit my requirement better for a bi amp set up.

I know it is a little over the top end of your price range, but Cary makes really nice sounding products.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/cary-audio-cad-120s/

Also, if you have some patience, I would look around for a pair of Manley Snappers.  I have owned these in the past and 100 wpc will push those VR2's.

I was running them on a pair of VR-4jr's.  They pop on Agon or Ebay and can be had for less than $3k, probably closer to $2,500.

Good luck!

[sunnydaze]

The Cary is an amp!

The Snappers are amps!

It is clear from the models under consideration in his initial post, that the OP is shopping for an integrated!  Ideally, one with a built-in phono section.

Good grief!            

[Escott1377]

The Cary is an amp!

The Snappers are amps!

It is clear from the models under consideration in this initial post, that the OP is shopping for an integrated!  Ideally, one with a built-in phono section.

Good grief!            

Hopefully you will take a moment to again review my disclaimer about my lack of experience with the products he mentioned.

I read a post about a tube amp, I post an opinion on tube amps...

[sunnydaze]

Hopefully you will take a moment to again review my disclaimer about my lack of experience with the products he mentioned.

I read a post about a tube amp, I post an opinion on tube amps...

Google is your friend.  You can search on his mentioned models in seconds.  That's what I did.  How else can you get an understanding and reference point for what he's considering?     

[twitch54]

Rogue ………...

[JLM]

I fully agree that the amp needs to provide a "commanding grip" on the speakers to maximize the possible detail/imaging resolution from the speaker.  But what constitutes that "commanding grip" depends on several factors:

- listening taste/habbits (little girls with guitars at realistic levels or Led Zeppelin at hearing loss levels)
- room size
- how benign (flat without low dips) the speaker's impedance curve is (is the speaker an "easy" load?)
- "beefiness" of the power supply (this is a point where tube amps tend to be superior over solid state amps, especially class D) seem to provide better grip
- how low the speaker's frequency response goes (bass takes lots of juice)
- the relationship between watts of dB is logarithmic so the difference between 40 and 100 wpc is only 4 dB
- thermal compression of the speakers at higher wattage inputs at some point would be a bigger sound quality factor than grip

When shopping for tube amps consider the damping factor of the amp versus deep bass frequency response curve of the speakers to be used.  Traditional poor (low) damping of tube amps worked well enough for speakers with significant bass roll-off, but cause bass bloat/flabbiness with speakers with extended/flat bass frequency response.

[sunnydaze]

- the relationship between watts of dB is logarithmic so the difference between 40 and 100 wpc is only 4 dB

Which is why I suggested earlier that a general formula would be 40 wpc for 90 or 92 db speakers, and 100 wpc for 87 db speakers.  Roughly a 4 db diff in sensitivity.

This is just a rough starting point that one can implement with basic amp and speaker data / specs that are commonly provided.  I agree with all your other points, but the problem is, for the most part they are theoretical.  Some of these other specs -- like robustness of p/s, damping factors, and speaker impedance curve -- are not typically stated.  Speaker LF limit typically is, but is often exaggerated. 

So how a particular amp / speaker pairing synergizes (or not) is often only discovered by actually combining the two in the real world.

[JLM]

Most would say tube watts = twice as many solid state watts because of the robust power supplies and the "softer" clipping of tube amps versus solid state.

Some would add that the bass flabbiness can make the tube amps seem bigger than the comparatively constipated solid state amps.


On more than one occasion the Prima Luna made me seriously wonder if we'd gotten on the wrong track with solid state (and I'm a 40 year user of solid state).

[JakeJ]

Having owned both the Dodd 120's and Music Reference RM9 mk2, I can also heartily recommend them.  Both are great amps.  Never should have sold the Dodds......fast, slammin and clear with huge soundstage.  Very exciting amps.

This is what I experience with my VAC gear.  My CPA-1 Mk III preamp and PA-160 Mk III monoblocks will leave my possession via my will.

However, I do believe the OP wants to go with an integrated, so perhaps the recs should be targetted at that?     

I also owned PrimaLuna Dilaogue 2 integrated.  Another good one, if enough power.  For me, and in my experience, on 87db speakers and below, 40 wpc is definitely not enough.  Oh, it will get loud enough.  It's not only about volume.  It's about grip and control and scale and ease and speed, and opening up a speaker such that the soundstage produced matches its potential.  IMO, you need power to do that on speakers 87 and below.  Generally speaking, with 40wpc I would not go below a 90db speaker, maybe 92.

So I don't understand these recs in the 40 wpc range.........     

I think sunnydaze is spot on here.

Hopefully you will take a moment to again review my disclaimer about my lack of experience with the products he mentioned.

I read a post about a tube amp, I post an opinion on tube amps...

And this excuses your laziness how?  The OP made a specific request to which you recommend two products that were not even close to the requested integrated amp.  I feel if one is to contribute to a thread constructively then one should have the due diligence to read the first post thoroughly and then respond thoughtfully.  You'll note I don't respond to every thread in the circle as I often don't have experience with a particular piece that info is requested on or constructive input on many topics started here.

What I'm askin' is that you participate in a thread don't just throw out an offhand recommendation just to do it.

Cool beans that you had a pair of Snappers driving VR-4jr's.  A pair of VR-4 Gen III HSE's once grace my listening space but I moved them on during my audio journey.

chgolatin2, please keep us posted as to your decision and ultimately how it works out for you.