[ajmac]

Hi All,

I'm a newbie is A/C. I started off searching for a pair of better speakers to play classical music and hope to enjoy it with the family. You can find my posts in the 'Open baffle' circle.

I went to a local dealer to listen to the maggies. I spent about 30 minutes on the 0.7 and 90 minutes on the 1.7i. For sure, the 1.7i have a fuller presentation of an orchestra. Both speakers are driven by a Naim SuperNait2 (80w/ch). The amp and the 1.7i were able to present a couple of my favorite concertos with the expected size of the concert hall and the fullness of most of the instruments. I believe the room was well treated with all sorts of acoustic panels, and there was 2.5 to 3 feet behind the maggies. It was a very enjoyable experience, especially the presentation on the string instruments. They just sound more real and natural than my monitor speakers. But with the piano concerto, the presentation seems to have a little less with the 'attack' yet the ambient of the hall was very good. And with other jazz pieces as well as some test tracks that contain more precussion passages, the 'attack' seemed to be satisfying (ie, I didn't feel the need of looking for them).

After coming back to reality, I started to search for reviews and used equipments for the new set of maggie 1.7i and the Naim integrated are way over my budget. I saw a review on 'enjoy the music' (I think) on the 3.6, the reviewer seem to commenting the maggies tend to have narrow sweet spot comparing to cone speakers: is this your experience?

Enjoy the remainder of the long weekend with your music.

[SteveFord]

The reviewer probably had the tweeters on the inside with considerable toe-in.
I wouldn't pay him much attention.
Heck, I just read a review where Wendell Diller (their sales manager for the past 46 years) is actually the company founder and CEO Jim Winey.

[Don_S]

Heck, I just read a review where Wendell Diller (their sales manager for the past 46 years) is actually the company founder and CEO Jim Winey.

 

[Goosepond]

Makes sense to me if you read it backwards and upside down!

Gene

[John Casler]

, the reviewer seem to commenting the maggies tend to have narrow sweet spot comparing to cone speakers: is this your experience?

It is not just the Maggies, but most all planar and ribbon drivers, unless other wise facilitated by a Constant Directivity Wave Guide, will have a tendency to "focus" upper mid and treble frequencies in a more narrow dispersion (directivity pattern).  The very wave lengths themselves, contribute to this quality, by having smaller lengths and less dispersion compared to lower frequencies.  This is called beaming, as it is more similar to the higher frequencies (like light) which has an even tighter beaming, due to even shorter wave lengths.

The dipolar design of the Maggies and certain set up schemes (like the suggested tweeters on the outside) will help ameliorate this to a degree.

While quite often this quality is discussed as a "negative", it is only negative if your listening sessions require that multiple persons be able to hear the same soundstage.  It is also a hold over from commercial sound reinforcement applications where the number 1 goal was to make sure every seat in the house had good sound.

In the High Performance 2 channel audiophile system, where you mostly enjoy your system by yourself, such focused dispersion characteristics are better.  This is because high dispersion also creates far more reflected sounds, and can muddy and distort the original signal to your ears.  And when higher frequencies are dispersed, they lose significant energy to being dispersed over a larger area (where you ears are not) and this then can reduce detail and resolution.

So, the take home message, is that a small sweet spot to one interested in High Performance Listening, is much like the performance difference between a Formula One race car, and a BMW sedan.  One will offer nice performance for a family of 4, the other will thrill you to death with Performance for YOU.

Nice thing is, you set it up for the level and kind of sonics you desire. 

[Don_S]

The reviewer probably had the tweeters on the inside with considerable toe-in.

Heck, I just read a review where Wendell Diller (their sales manager for the past 46 years) is actually the company founder and CEO Jim Winey.

I get it now.  Wendell Diller is really Jim Winey.  Or is it Jim Winey is really Wendell Diller?  Guess I am still confused. But not as confused as Jim and Wendell. 

[timind]

Yes the sweetspot is rather small with Maggies. The only way to decide if they are for you is to live with them for a few days. Listening in a dealer's showroom ain't going to tell you the truth.

[SteveFord]

I get it now.  Wendell Diller is really Jim Winey.  Or is it Jim Winey is really Wendell Diller?  Guess I am still confused. But not as confused as Jim and Wendell. 

According to that one review, Wendell must be both Jim and Wendell and then he also turned into Mark, Jim and Wendell when Jim retired.
There's a reality show in that one.

Now that I think of it, he did mention that he wears many different hats in his job.  I just thought that meant he got his own coffee and put stamps on envelopes...

[mcgsxr]

Glad that you had a chance to try the Maggies.

I have been actively enjoying reproduced audio for over 25 years now, and have never (!) ever sat with anyone else to do it.  I have had folks come over and listen to my setup.  They sit in the main chair and I sit off to the side and chat as they desire.  I don't value having a wide sweet spot I guess.

That said, there are 2 stand out experiences I have had that delivered a wide sweet spot.  One was the Dynaudio Confidence floor standers.  I heard them at a local dealer, driven by Cary gear by memory.  I was absolutely stunned that I could stand at the main chair and walk side to side until I was literally in front of the L or R speaker, and the soundstage was riveted to the middle.  It was eerie.

The only other time I have heard that, was in my own listening room with my DIY Visaton b200 OB speakers.  BUT, only when driven by a set of amps that AC member markc brought over.  He and a partner were the manufacturer and designer of these hybrid 300w monoblocks.  They also delivered a soundstage that refused to move off center.  It was unique.

That said, it doesn't add anything to me.  All serious listening for me is done in the sweet spot chair.  I do play pool with music on from the main system, but that is pool playing with music on, not listening actively to music.  Likely just me.

I would consider seeking out a set of the Maggie MMG's.  They are affordable (599 from the factory, often 1/2 that on the used market) and deliver a huge slice of musical presentation excellence.  My best friend actively asserts I am a dunce for selling them, and keeping my 1.6's.  He firmly hears something magical from the MMG that he does not hear with the 1.6's.

I understand what he is talking about, but I do hear that magic with the 1.6's - plus the added bass and treble please me.  And I have a huge dedicated space to take advantage of the larger Maggies - or perhaps they are taking advantage of me!

I found that the combination of the ~$200-$300 Crown XLS 1500 and the ~$300 MMG's delivered an amazing combo - I sold my Totem Model 1's after hearing it.  And I had wanted those Model 1's for 20 years.  5 minutes with the MMG's and I knew I was selling them.

For me, it is that spaciousness that you reference having heard with the 0.7's - few other speakers deliver the soundstage, depth and realism that OB brings to my ears.

I totally acknowledge that there are other excellent speakers, many not OB. 

[SwamisCat]

The sweet spot issue is interesting. I notice at audio society meetings and demos that some people are not bothered by sitting to the side. Personally, I find the situation odd.  I can ONLY evaluate the realism of an audio set up if I am dead center and can "see" every performer in a balanced soundstage with proper depth and instrument size. Obviously tone and dynamics and frequency range are important, but the mark of a good stereo to these ears is a wide, deep, realistic soundstage.

My point isn't than I am right and others are wrong. It is that it is apparent that what I value in high fidelity is not valued universally. Indeed, I have heard several reviewers and numerous audiophiles who have stressed that the holographic sound staging isn't that critical to them. Viva la difference I guess.

All this said, I find Maggies are champs at holographic, realistic sound staging and depth. That is why I love them. They also have extremely tight sweet spots where this realism illusion works. It is one exact spot. An inch to either side and it gets muddled. As other comments have stressed, this is no big deal as I almost always do serious listening alone, and when I do listen with others they are rarely sound
Stage freaks like me.

[Roger Gustavsson]

I find Maggies are champs at holographic, realistic sound staging and depth. That is why I love them. They also have extremely tight sweet spots where this realism illusion works. It is one exact spot. An inch to either side and it gets muddled. As other comments have stressed, this is no big deal as I almost always do serious listening alone, and when I do listen with others they are rarely sound
Stage freaks like me.

I do not agree on the first statement, there is at times a sort of sameness, a synthetic room added. Not unpleasent but still not always a true presentation of the recording. I have found all speakers with side by side drivers to present a small sweetspot. I think most listeners are not at all sensitive to how the stage is presented. Some just love it wide, big. 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I have the 1.6's and mmg's and they do present a small sweet spot. I would consider getting the 0.7's and a sub to fill in the bottom end crossed over at about 50hz (although some may say higher.  I prefer to run the  Maggies full range) and you will get a fuller sound.

Concerning the attack.  That mostly depends upon the amp, preamp and music source.  I use to run a Parasound A21 amp and the attack on instruments was fantastic.  I now run a much more expensive Pass amp and it has a softer attack.  I got some of that back when I upgraded my preamp and dac.

What is your budget for speakers and amp?  Used amps may be the way to go.

[SwamisCat]

Hi Roger,

You may be right, I may be wrong about the "realistic" adjective. Wide, deep, holographic with each instrument portrayed in an exact position, with "realistic sounding" size and height.* Most speakers don't give me this effect -- whether realistic to the recording or not. And as I was saying, many audiophiles don't seem to demand it, either.

* Assuming the recording is trying to make them realistic sized, many recordings are obviously going for the twenty foot wide drum set or piano, and the ten foot guitar.

[josh358]

Well, it's a bit complicated because a number of things are going on.

First of all, a dipole dumps 4.8 dB less into the room than an omni. This is an advantage if you don't want to use lots of acoustic treatment or disturb the neighbors. But it means that they aren't great party speakers, because most of the sound is directed at the listener so it doesn't fill the room in the same way.

Then, as Roger pointed out, there's the issue of side-by-side drivers. In conventional speakers with drivers oriented vertically, the crossover lobes (regions of higher and lower output) are vertical, so the speaker can be designed to put you on crossover axis where response is flat when you're sitting anywhere in the room. With line sources with drivers offset laterally, the crossover lobes are lateral. That means that if you move to the left or the right the frequency response changes at the crossover point. The rate at which this happens and even the direction (the lobes aren't symmetrical) depends on the crossover type and the physical offset between the drivers.

Also, there's driver beaming, which affects all speakers. This is caused when the size of the driver is more than about half a wavelength so it affects higher frequencies. Most stats beam like crazy. Maggies vary in the degree to which they beam. The cheap ones like the MMG have a wide tweeter so they beam some. The true ribbon models (3.x, 20.x, etc.) have very narrow ribbons so they have *better* dispersion than dynamic speakers. The 1.7's and .7's have a supertweeter to reduce high frequency beaming and while I haven't seen measurements they should be closer to the true ribbons in that respect.

Anyway, in practice, I don't think you'll find the sweet spot so tight that two people can't listen side by side and you can expand it a bit using some tricks, playing with tweeter on the inside or outside, aiming the axis to the edges of the listening area either crossed or not depending on lobe direction.

Re imaging -- among conventional speakers, line source dipoles are inimitable in that regard. Roger is right that there can be sort of a "one size fits all" acoustic but this is a problem with conventional two channel stereo no matter *what* you do because it depends for a sense of space on reflections in the listening room. Effectively, the backwave is being used for artificial reverb (or the lateral first reflection in the case of a conventional box. The trick here is to delay the backwave as much as you can -- that means getting them as far away from the rear wall as possible -- and to use diffusion behind the speakers. That will help prevent the listening room's first reflection from masking the first reflection on the recording, while the diffusors will give you a nice sense of ambiance. In practice, 3' is the minimum distance, 5' is better, depth continues to increase up to at least 15' out from the wall! And the diffusors are optional but usually they will improve things.

Unlike boxes, line source dipoles don't want treatment on the floor and ceiling (except maybe for a bit of carpet on the floor) and don't usually need it on the sidewalls because of the dipole null.

[zuluwarrior0760]

I've had 3.7s for three years and I've never felt they had a narrow sweet spot,
although dead center is wonderful.......
I have my tweeters out and the tweeters are laser aimed right onto my ear lobes.....

If I am seated dead center it's great......If I'm lying on the sofa sideways
reading album covers, it's still great.......

If you want a speaker with the tightest sweet spot in audio history, it is the
Sanders 10B/C.  I heard a pair at a friend's home and at shows and if you
move more than 2 inches to the right or left, everything collapses and the
presentation is 180 degrees different than before.....