[AmpDesigner333]

As I said, the Crowns (and their pro brethren) may or may not be the best amps you can get. But the fact that the differences between them and some of the more audiophile approved amps are debatable at all indicates that they are, in the broad scheme of things, relatively minor.

Whereas no-one (I hope) would debate that the difference between the MMGs and the 1.7s is immediately obvious. Ditto the difference between the 1.7s and the 3.7s.

So, if you have MMGs, you can pay $1500 over the cost of a Crown for no difference or at best a minor one. Or you can use that $1500 to buy obviously better 1.7s. If you have 1.7s, that $1500 could buy used 3.7s.

As I said, if I had limited funds I know where I'd invest them.

Mags are just about the most sensitive speakers to amplifier selection, especially the smaller panels.

Pro amps are designed for reliability and low cost, NOT sonics.

Are you really going to handicap such wonderful speakers to save something like $50/yr?

Almost every company has a return/trial policy.  Buying direct gets you a LOT more hardware for the money.

[josh358]

As I said, the Crowns (and their pro brethren) may or may not be the best amps you can get. But the fact that the differences between them and some of the more audiophile approved amps are debatable at all indicates that they are, in the broad scheme of things, relatively minor.

Well, this is an interesting question and maybe the answer to it isn't simple? Because I'm reading completely contradictory assessments of the Crowns, here and elsewhere. In fact, as I said, a friend here emailed me to say that the Crowns work wonderfully on his MMG's but not well at all on his 3.7's. And here's an interesting thread in which some sound reinforcement pros reach diametrically opposite conclusions about the cheap pro amps vs. the more expensive ones:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-crown-xls-drivecore-thread.79978/page-3

I'm guessing that people are talking past one another in that they've used the amps under radically different conditions. After all, any modern amp will sound pretty good *within its linear range*. They'll sound different because of impedance interactions that alter the frequency response, but those differences tend to be fairly subtle differences in tonal balance. That's the subtle part.

But a sound reinforcement guy who is using an amp in a stadium is going to be pushing it much harder than the typical home user. He'll be using it at the limits of capability and then he'll hear the difference between an expensive amp with an overbuilt power supply that can recover quickly from peak clipping and ride over voltage drops.

Even at home, people listen at very different levels, on speakers of varying efficiency. Subjectively, 1000 watts is only twice as loud as 100 watts and judging by the meter readings people have posted people listen at peak levels that differ by 10, 20, or even 30 dB. So you're talking a huge difference in demands on the amp.

MMG's start to sound unhappy when the SPL's get into the 90's, so most people aren't going to push them very hard, whereas 3.7's are clean at much higher levels. And Maggies are of course inefficient. So the 3.7's may in practice be stressing the Crown more than the MMG's.

I'll know better in a few days when I compare the Crown and the A-21's. In the meantime, it doesn't surprise me that people are having radically different experiences with the Crowns.

[Davey]

Are you really going to handicap such wonderful speakers to save something like $50/yr?

Your "handicap"ing comment is based on subjective evaluation, yes?  It gets tricky when you start bad-mouthing product based on subjectivity, yes?

I think most users can be trusted to make a value-based decision/evaluation here......sans agenda from an "AmpDesigner."

Dave.

[S Clark]

I think most users can be trusted to make a value-based decision/evaluation here...
Dave.

You mention "value-based decision", but ignore the original posters budget of $2000.  In that price range there are many amps far superior to the Crown products.  I realize that I can only speak for my ears and my system.  But I've heard the Crown in my system, and it is not comparable to either Moscode or Dodd.  It's just not that good... in my living room.  Those that have it in their systems will sing it's praises, but my experience is that it's just not good enough for what I want to hear.
... But at this point I suspect that the original poster has tuned out this cacophony.

[mcgsxr]

I have followed this thread, but given it is for a price point I don't play in, I had not posted in it.  I am happy with my Crown driving my 1.6's, but have no doubt that at 5-10x the price you can find better performance.

[Davey]

You mention "value-based decision", but ignore the original posters budget of $2000.  In that price range there are many amps far superior to the Crown products.  I realize that I can only speak for my ears and my system.  But I've heard the Crown in my system, and it is not comparable to either Moscode or Dodd.  It's just not that good... in my living room.  Those that have it in their systems will sing it's praises, but my experience is that it's just not good enough for what I want to hear.
... But at this point I suspect that the original poster has tuned out this cacophony.

I didn't ignore anything.  His "value-based decision" will obviously have to fit in the $2000.00 price range.  But, there isn't any low limit on that, is there?
Your subjective evaluation of the Crown amps is yours only.......but the Crown amps DO fit in that $2000 price range, and thus should not be excluded......subjective performance notwithstanding.

Maybe I have a $50,000 budget for a car.  Does that mean I need to exclude a Toyota Camry from consideration???

Dave.

[S Clark]

.......but the Crown amps DO fit in that $2000 price range, and thus should not be excluded......
Dave.

Ahh, now we get down to it.  Exactly which of these $2000 amps have you personally had in your system to compare to?  Would you please describe the rest of your system while you listing your experience with amps?
All I can speak to is my experience.  But are lots of AC members with more experience and better gear to judge with. 

[Davey]

You're getting sidetracked on a tangent. 

Here's a scenario for you:  You and I are listening/evaluating amplifier A driving speakers A.  I like the sound and you don't.  We remove amplifier A and install amplifier B (still speakers A) and now you like the sound and I don't.
Where does that leave us?  What useful information can be gleaned for a third listener who wasn't in attendance? 

If I were to tell you that amplifier A cost $10,000.00 and amplifier B cost $1,000.00, would that be relevant to our third person?

Do you see what I'm getting at? 

Dave.

[S Clark]

I see that you have not answered my question.  What is your experience with amplifiers in the $2K price class, and what is your equipment?  Your answer to these questions bears directly on the validity of your opinion.  I tend to trust those who have actually heard equipment in revealing systems.  Guys like BigRedMachine, Art Smuck, Neo, the late Johnthechairguy, Dougs (now banned), etc.  There are also a couple of pros with whom I've formed friendships with.  I consult with them... Danny R and Dave E. 
I'm not interested in the whole "it' too expensive for what you get" arguments, as that varies by individual.  You say that amp A is great, I say it's not.  I want to know what your background is so I can better judge the quality of your opinion. 

I'll give you a good example.  When I was looking for an amp for the GR-Research/AV123 LS9 speakers, I sent pm's to the guys I know that had those or related speakers.  Based on their experience, I narrowed my list.  Then I sent pm's to guys that were using those amps or had had them in their systems for extended periods. 
What I didn't do was open a thread, where all you get is "my amp is best". 

[Davey]

Your question's premise is irrelevant. 
You may have heard me say this on the forum previously, but I'll repeat it again.  Subjective evaluation is, by definition, incontrovertible.  There's no (real) basis for discussion.

My amplifier resume' is meaningless to you.....as is yours to me.  In a listening comparison you and I might find ourselves agreeing about certain aspects.....maybe that amplifier A has powerful and smooth bass response...or laid back highs...or whatever.  But who's to say that a third person doesn't think we're both full of it? 

You're determined to talk specifics here.....but I've been talking in generalities on purpose.  Do you see why?
Your intention seems to be to find out what amplifiers I've listened to so you can make a judgement and/or invalidate my amplifier listening prowess.  Sorry, I'm not going to fall into that trap. 

Back to the original query. He's just asking for opinions.  Yours and mine are perfectly valid I suppose....but they're just opinions.
The Crown was mentioned......and you offered your opinion on it....FWIW.  Now, maybe, you've irritated those users who are using the Crown amplifiers?

Cheers,

Dave.

[srb]

But who's to say that a third person doesn't think we're both full of it? 

You are absolutely correct, sir. 

[Davey]

You are absolutely correct, sir. 

Multiple ways your comment could be taken!
Excellent! 

Dave.

[AmpDesigner333]

Your "handicap"ing comment is based on subjective evaluation, yes?  It gets tricky when you start bad-mouthing product based on subjectivity, yes?

I think most users can be trusted to make a value-based decision/evaluation here......sans agenda from an "AmpDesigner."

Dave.

With a few decades in the pro audio industry, I feel DJ amps in general aren't adequate for audiophile use (:

-Tommy O

[S Clark]

"$2000 Power amps to drive Maggies" +- $500 includes:
Butler, Moscode, Jeff Rowland, McCormack, Bel Canto, Classe, Cherry, Dodd, BAT, NCore, Wyred4Sound, Krell, Bryston
This is from my experience and a quick look at Audiogon and USaudiomart.  And from our own for sale section, Rogue and Pass can be added.
I'm sure others can add to the list. 

[mfsoa]

I've heard the DAC Maraschinos on my best friends 1.7s in a large basement.

Now don't tell my buddy but when I'm over I turn off his 15" Rhythmic sub and he doesn't notice.

The maggies fill the room with tight punchy deep bass like I can't believe. (The rest of the spectrum just stunning too).

I see there is 1 pr of Maras for < $1000. Simply amazing deal.

-Mike

[Davey]

With a few decades in the pro audio industry, I feel DJ amps in general aren't adequate for audiophile use (:

-Tommy O

Yeah, just your opinion.
There is a lot of pro audio gear being used in the domestic environment nowadays.  In many ways, folks in the pro audio world are light years ahead of those in the "high-end" audio industry.  At least they don't have their heads in the sand like many high-end audio manufacturers do.

A couple of your amps look like they would fit the application for a $2000 amp to drive Maggies just fine.  What's wrong with just advocating your own product?

Dave.

[S Clark]

I think this pair of Dodd 120's are still available.  They are highly regarded and would drive Maggies nicely. 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136292.0

[AmpDesigner333]

Yeah, just your opinion.
There is a lot of pro audio gear being used in the domestic environment nowadays.  In many ways, folks in the pro audio world are light years ahead of those in the "high-end" audio industry.  At least they don't have their heads in the sand like many high-end audio manufacturers do.

A couple of your amps look like they would fit the application for a $2000 amp to drive Maggies just fine.  What's wrong with just advocating your own product?

Dave.

I did. To sum it up, the Maraschino Cherry amp does VERY well with Mags of any size. Reasonable prices, sold direct for the best value. 30 day trial.  Low impedance output, high speed/bandwidth, ultra low noise/THD, DC coupled, true balanced input, single ended adapters included, upgradable power supplies, proprietary component level proven design, high customer satisfaction. Designed by a world class engineer with decades of audio experience in both high end and pro.  Thanks (:

-Tommy O / Digital Amp Co

[Davey]

Tommy,

Now you're talking.  Plus up your own designs and don't belittle the competition you mentioned.  Good on you.
Easily available for a fella in Australia like Kyle?

Regarding Dodd amplifiers.  I haven't been paying much attention in other Circles, but what is the outlook on support and repair for those amplifiers at this point?  Will the schematics/spares/etc be made available so users can service them or have them serviced by qualified repair shops?

Dave.

[SteveFord]

It's been my experience that the larger Maggies are the ones that are more demanding of component quality, the smaller ones aren't nearly as revealing.  My MMGs sound good with anything I've thrown at them including the Crown amplifier which I'm currently using.  That worked out just great.