Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO

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roscoeiii

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #20 on: 6 Sep 2015, 06:03 pm »
And as JA mentioned elsewhere in the review,  the high THD he measured was to a large degree  second order,  which could explain the positive listening responses of the reviewer (well,  that and the contribution of the unique power supply).

rascal

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #21 on: 6 Sep 2015, 07:43 pm »

Unqualified performance as preamp- for that LIO has got fantastic feedback  :thumb: 

Hope this is a good seller for you Vinnie!

CarterB

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #22 on: 6 Sep 2015, 07:50 pm »
Darko was impressed at how well the LIO powered his Magnepan MMG planars that I think it is hard to question the amps's umph.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/09/get-a-room-vinnie-rossi-lio-and-magnepan-mmg/

Timbana

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #23 on: 6 Sep 2015, 08:41 pm »
"I was impressed by the concept underlying the Vinnie Rossi LIO, and its physical execution is stunning. But other than the RVC, moving-magnet Phonostage, and Digital modules, all of which offered good to excellent measured performance, there are problems with the other modules that bothered me. Of course, the benefit of the approach adopted by Vinnie Rossi with the LIO is that he can introduce running improvements to individual modules without requiring the owner replace the entire chassis.—John Atkinson"

http://www.stereophile.com/content/vinnie-rossi-lio-modular-integrated-amplifier-measurements#CIT9Qj9b8FXRbLGC.97

There have been many instances in the past where JA was "bothered" by how a component measures (often with tube gear), while all reviewers who listened to the component raved about the sound. That appears to again be the case with this review. Herb Reichert listened, and loved it. JA measured, and was bothered.

I bought a pair of Audience 2+2 speakers between 2 and 3 years ago in spite of JA being bothered by how they measured. Reviewers in Stereophile, Absolute Sound, Audio Revolution, etc. who listened to the 2+2's , called them the best two way speakers they had heard, said they "crushed other mini monitors at their own game", etc. I've owned quite a number of high end speakers, and auditioned countless others, and the 2+2's remain my all-time faves. To me, it's completely irrelevant that someone was "bothered" by how they measured.

Likewise, I've owned quite a number of well regarded tube and solid state amps and integrateds and, in my opinion, the LIO is among the best. When considering the price of the LIO versus some of the competition, it is a steal! Somehow, I've never had the urge to measure the LIO, or my 2+2's . . . but I absolutely love the way they sound.

gregfisk

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #24 on: 6 Sep 2015, 08:58 pm »
There have been many instances in the past where JA was "bothered" by how a component measures (often with tube gear), while all reviewers who listened to the component raved about the sound. That appears to again be the case with this review. Herb Reichert listened, and loved it. JA measured, and was bothered.

I bought a pair of Audience 2+2 speakers between 2 and 3 years ago in spite of JA being bothered by how they measured. Reviewers in Stereophile, Absolute Sound, Audio Revolution, etc. who listened to the 2+2's , called them the best two way speakers they had heard, said they "crushed other mini monitors at their own game", etc. I've owned quite a number of high end speakers, and auditioned countless others, and the 2+2's remain my all-time faves. To me, it's completely irrelevant that someone was "bothered" by how they measured.

Likewise, I've owned quite a number of well regarded tube and solid state amps and integrateds and, in my opinion, the LIO is among the best. When considering the price of the LIO versus some of the competition, it is a steal! Somehow, I've never had the urge to measure the LIO, or my 2+2's . . . but I absolutely love the way they sound.

Very well said, I just don't understand how someone can be "bothered" by a component because of how it measured if they felt the component sounded good. If you can't hear the poor measurement and the piece sounds wonderful why would you care? Some people will talk down a component because of how it measures and won't even bother to listen to it, I don't get it :scratch:.

SteveFord

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #25 on: 7 Sep 2015, 01:59 am »
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/09/get-a-room-vinnie-rossi-lio-and-magnepan-mmg/

Wendell is the CEO and Founder of Magnepan?
This article must be from a parallel universe or he didn't do any homework at all.

Vinnie R.

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #26 on: 7 Sep 2015, 04:16 am »
Quote from: David C.
You've got to stop being so polite, Vinnie - it makes the trolls angry! :lol:

Hi David C.,

I admit that sometimes it's hard being polite.  Maybe one day I'll snap and bring out a dark side.  :cuss:   :icon_twisted:

And as JA mentioned elsewhere in the review,  the high THD he measured was to a large degree  second order,  which could explain the positive listening responses of the reviewer (well,  that and the contribution of the unique power supply).

Hi roscoeiii,

Good point! - and typically there is even more 2nd order THD in highly regarded tube amps (again, highly regarded when listening to them with music - not using test tones on the bench).

Quote
Unqualified performance as preamp- for that LIO has got fantastic feedback  :thumb:

Hope this is a good seller for you Vinnie!

Hi rascal,

Thank you, and so far it is going very well and I consistently have a backlog of orders to catch up with.  I enjoy all the intricacies
of LIO more than anything I have worked on before, and have a lot of ideas for LIO looking forward!  I am very thankful for all
your continued interest, feedback, and support!  :bowdown:


Quote
Darko was impressed at how well the LIO powered his Magnepan MMG planars that I think it is hard to question the amps's umph.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/09/get-a-room-vinnie-rossi-lio-and-magnepan-mmg/

Hi CarterB,

Thanks for posting this!  John mentioned that at the same volume level with LIO, he is getting a little more SPL out of the MMGs than with the LS50s.  I thought the LS50s had a higher sensitivity.

Yes, LIO's power supply plays an integral role in all of this, and its transient (instantaneous) power, especially into more challenging impedances, is one of LIO MOSFET AMP's strong suits. 

I find that having clean instantaneous power with complex music and speaker loads is actually more important than having a a somewhat higher RMS power rating (attained via testing with a test tone and resistive load) but inability to supply high enough output current for transients in the music. 

Quote
There have been many instances in the past where JA was "bothered" by how a component measures (often with tube gear), while all reviewers who listened to the component raved about the sound. That appears to again be the case with this review. Herb Reichert listened, and loved it. JA measured, and was bothered.

Hi Timbana,

I have seen this numerous times over the last decade+ of reading Stereophile, with electronics AND speakers.  Also interesting are the reviews in where a component measures quite well, but the reviewer doing the listening finds things that he does not like about its sound quality. :scratch:

I suppose if one is interested enough in a particular component, they will try to listen to it (ideally in their own system) and decide if it is right for them in terms of sonic performance, cost, warranty, customer service/support, where it is made, etc. 

Quote
Very well said, I just don't understand how someone can be "bothered" by a component because of how it measured if they felt the component sounded good. If you can't hear the poor measurement and the piece sounds wonderful why would you care?

Hi gregfisk,

I agree!


Thanks for all your posts!

Vinnie

johnnydarko

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #27 on: 8 Sep 2015, 02:27 am »
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/09/get-a-room-vinnie-rossi-lio-and-magnepan-mmg/

Wendell is the CEO and Founder of Magnepan?
This article must be from a parallel universe or he didn't do any homework at all.

It was from a parallel universe in which the author was suffering from a severe chest infection brought on by Freon leaking from a fridge.

Back in the real world with a bump from Prednisone, the error was corrected and an apology sent to concerned parties.

Vinnie R.

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #28 on: 8 Sep 2015, 03:27 am »
It was from a parallel universe in which the author was suffering from a severe chest infection brought on by Freon leaking from a fridge.

Back in the real world with a bump from Prednisone, the error was corrected and an apology sent to concerned parties.

Glad you caught that leak - fluorinated hydrocarbons can be nasty!   :o

I'll be shipping you a LIO DSD/PCM dac and LIO AVC/TUBESTAGE this month for your PART 3 !

Vinnie

yardbird4

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #29 on: 8 Sep 2015, 08:38 pm »
That's the most lame response I've ever seen.

Actually,  the response that is most telling is "listening."  For those of us who have been building systems for decades or longer and following the advances in Audio during this time, the tension between measuring (remember Stereo Review?) and listening is well known.   I think "listening" won that battle a long time ago.  To paraphrase "what you hear is more important than what you measure."  Based upon what I have heard it would not make me any difference if the LIO measured at 20% THD and put out 10 watts into 8 ohms.  I would still sell my Parasound JC 1's and replace them with the LIO.  The Parasound's are rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms but in my experience never drove my speakers (Spendor of FL 9's) as well as the LIO musically speaking  ... in any way.

I read John Atkinson's piece on measurements on the LIO and it did not give me pause because I listened to the LIO.  We already know the LIO is  advertised as a fairly low powered amp.  There is nothing sinister going on here in my view.   So why the angst over an old debate that in this case, has no relevance?  I think even John Atkinson had no quarrel with the sound qualities of the LIO.  Case closed.

jhm731

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #30 on: 9 Sep 2015, 12:02 am »
Actually,  the response that is most telling is "listening."  For those of us who have been building systems for decades or longer and following the advances in Audio during this time, the tension between measuring (remember Stereo Review?) and listening is well known.   I think "listening" won that battle a long time ago.  To paraphrase "what you hear is more important than what you measure."  Based upon what I have heard it would not make me any difference if the LIO measured at 20% THD and put out 10 watts into 8 ohms.  I would still sell my Parasound JC 1's and replace them with the LIO.  The Parasound's are rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms but in my experience never drove my speakers (Spendor of FL 9's) as well as the LIO musically speaking  ... in any way.

I read John Atkinson's piece on measurements on the LIO and it did not give me pause because I listened to the LIO.  We already know the LIO is  advertised as a fairly low powered amp.  There is nothing sinister going on here in my view.   So why the angst over an old debate that in this case, has no relevance?  I think even John Atkinson had no quarrel with the sound qualities of the LIO.  Case closed.

First, I sent a PM to Vinnie and asked him to delete the post you quoted.

I agree the most telling is "listening," but John Atkinson didn't make any comments about the sound qualities of the LIO in the review, so the "Case" is not closed.

I'd love to hear the LIO and compare it to a Devialet 200, but Vinnie doesn't have any dealers and I don't have $7K to send him for a 30-day trial.

Vinnie R.

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #31 on: 9 Sep 2015, 12:15 am »
Actually,  the response that is most telling is "listening."  For those of us who have been building systems for decades or longer and following the advances in Audio during this time, the tension between measuring (remember Stereo Review?) and listening is well known.   I think "listening" won that battle a long time ago.  To paraphrase "what you hear is more important than what you measure."  Based upon what I have heard it would not make me any difference if the LIO measured at 20% THD and put out 10 watts into 8 ohms.  I would still sell my Parasound JC 1's and replace them with the LIO.  The Parasound's are rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms but in my experience never drove my speakers (Spendor of FL 9's) as well as the LIO musically speaking  ... in any way.

I read John Atkinson's piece on measurements on the LIO and it did not give me pause because I listened to the LIO.  We already know the LIO is  advertised as a fairly low powered amp.  There is nothing sinister going on here in my view.   So why the angst over an old debate that in this case, has no relevance?  I think even John Atkinson had no quarrel with the sound qualities of the LIO.  Case closed.

Hi yardbird4,

Thanks for your post, and feedback! 


Quote
First, I sent a PM to Vinnie and asked him to delete the post you quoted.

I agree the most telling is "listening," but John Atkinson didn't make any comments about the sound qualities of the LIO in the review, so the "Case" is not closed.

I'd love to hear the LIO and compare it to a Devialet 200, but Vinnie doesn't have any dealers and I don't have $7K to send him for a 30-day trial.


Hi jhm731,

I received your PM and responded to you stating that I do not have the admin privileges to delete your post.  You'd have to take it up with site admin JohnR and see if he is willing to do it. 

As to John, I do not believe he listened to the LIO.  Herb Reichert did the listening for the review, and JA did the measurements.

Quote
but Vinnie doesn't have any dealers and I don't have $7K to send him for a 30-day trial.

Then please move on.  There are many other audio companies that sell via distributors and dealers, at all different price points.

CASED CLOSED  8)

All the best,

Vinnie
« Last Edit: 9 Sep 2015, 01:25 am by Vinnie R. »

jtwrace

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #32 on: 9 Sep 2015, 12:17 am »
There were/are measurements? 

CarterB

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #33 on: 11 Sep 2015, 07:45 pm »
I downloaded the new Stereophile and see it has rated the LIO as a Class A Integrated recommended component. Apparently JA's "concerns" were not enough to not get a coveted class A. Congratulations, Vinnie!
« Last Edit: 11 Sep 2015, 09:20 pm by CarterB »

Vinnie R.

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #34 on: 11 Sep 2015, 09:53 pm »
I downloaded the new Stereophile and see it has rated the LIO as a Class A Integrated recommended component. Apparently JA's "concerns" were not enough to not get a coveted class A. Congratulations, Vinnie!

Hi CarterB,

Wow - what a nice way to wrap up the busy week!  8)



THANK YOU,

Vinnie
« Last Edit: 18 Sep 2015, 02:51 pm by Vinnie R. »

wilsynet

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #35 on: 20 Sep 2015, 09:04 pm »
In general, it seemed like JA was troubled by measurements which would normally be attributed to AC artifacts or less stout power supplies.  That may not make a difference to our subjective listening, but I wonder if these measurements may indicate opportunities for future improvements.

Having said that, there was one JA comment in particular that I was concerned about:

Quote
The LIO is specified as being able to deliver 25Wpc into 8 ohms (14dBW) or 45Wpc into 4 ohms (13.5dBW). However, with our standard definition of clipping being when the THD+noise reaches 1%, the LIO didn't reach those powers under that condition. It clipped at 17Wpc into 8 ohms (12.3dBW, fig.20) and 30Wpc into 4 ohms (11.75dBW, fig.21).

Does the LIO clip much earlier than 25 Wpc?

Vinnie R.

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #36 on: 21 Sep 2015, 04:34 pm »
In general, it seemed like JA was troubled by measurements which would normally be attributed to AC artifacts or less stout power supplies.  That may not make a difference to our subjective listening, but I wonder if these measurements may indicate opportunities for future improvements.


Hi wilsynet,

That is what I was troubled about as well.  As you know, LIO's circuitry is fully isolated from AC artifacts (and there are no power supply transformers internal to LIO that could sometimes can radiate noise).  So I'm not sure what he was picking up on his bench.  Perhaps noise from the signal generator or something else connected to the inputs/outputs?  Or noise from florescent light ballasts? :?   Or???  I was not there during the measurement process (not allowed for, and I am not questioning their policies), so I cannot say with certainty.

And LIO's power supply is very "stout," with >38,000,000uF of capacitance and super-low ESR / inductance via the ultracap banks.  In theory, it can unleash a few hundred amps instantaneously (of course I'm not recommending that you arc-weld with it!  :o).
So more stout than most conventional amplifier power supplies in that regard!

Quote
Does the LIO clip much earlier than 25 Wpc?

Well, JA measured it to reach clipping at 17Wrms into 8-ohm.  What does this difference mean to you in terms of how much
lower of a max SPL that you would be able to achieve out of your speakers vs. my measured 25wpc into 8-ohms?
We're talking 1.6dB difference, so very little difference in max SPL in reality. 

Quote
that I was concerned about

Do you find that you can play your speakers loud enough with LIO's MOSFET AMP?  I'm not talking about the position on the volume knob.  I mean can you play your music, using your particular speakers in your particular room, as loud as you need to?  Or are you reaching audible distortion (clipping of the amplifier) before the SPL in the room is loud enough for your needs/tastes?

If it plays loud enough for your needs, and you enjoy the resulting sound reproduced by the pairing, then there is little to be concerned about with regards to power. 

Another thing worth mentioning is that there is RMS power (continuous power), and there is peak (aka "transient) power.  Two amplifiers with the same RMS power rating may very well have different peak power ratings, and perform differently into different 'real world' speaker loads and real types of transient musical signals that they are instantaneously being called upon to amplify (vs. sine waves, or triangle or square waves on the bench).  So in this regards, bench measurements only focus on a small part of the much larger picture.

Listening is to your ears is as art is to your eyes.  How do you measure art?  You can measure the size of the canvas, the amounts of different colors used, the amount of light and dark... but how do you measure how art communicates with you? 

Vinnie

wilsynet

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Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #37 on: 22 Sep 2015, 03:50 am »
I am recently a father (4.5 months now) and it has been difficult to find time to really give the LIO a good run.  But what I have listened to I've been plenty happy about, and at relatively low volume to boot.

As for whether the LIO has enough power and current to drive my speakers, I have a pair of the Devore Orangutang O/93, which while not the ultimate word in efficiency, it is, I would guess, on the easier to drive side of the spectrum of speakers out there.

Quote
If it plays loud enough for your needs, and you enjoy the resulting sound reproduced by the pairing, then there is little to be concerned about with regards to power. 

Vinnie, I will respectfully disagree with you.

1) I won't necessarily always have these speakers and;

2) Not to put too fine a point on it, but if that's all that mattered, then you would have no problem changing your advertising to reflect 17 wpc rather than 25 wpc rms.  But I would guess that you're not willing to do that.  I think it's probably because you feel the transient response of your amplifier more than makes up for the arbitrary and artificial conditions of a bench test.

Having said all that, can you give some guidance as to what is the range of speaker impedance and sensitivity that is appropriately paired with the LIO's MOSFET amplifier?

Thanks!

Wilson

Vinnie R.

Re: Stereophile Joins The Chorus of Praise for the LIO
« Reply #38 on: 22 Sep 2015, 03:17 pm »
Hi Wilson,

Quote
I am recently a father (4.5 months now) and it has been difficult to find time to really give the LIO a good run.  But what I have listened to I've been plenty happy about, and at relatively low volume to boot.

Congratulations on becoming a father!   :beer:

Quote
As for whether the LIO has enough power and current to drive my speakers, I have a pair of the Devore Orangutang O/93, which while not the ultimate word in efficiency, it is, I would guess, on the easier to drive side of the spectrum of speakers out there.

I believe you'll find that you have plenty of power for the O93's, and they are quite easy to drive.

Quote
Having said all that, can you give some guidance as to what is the range of speaker impedance and sensitivity that is appropriately paired with the LIO's MOSFET amplifier?

In terms of impedance, LIO is happy with loudspeakers in the 4 - 16 ohm range.  And LIO is 2-ohm stable, so if you have a speaker that has a dip below 4-ohms in its impedance plot, it is not a problem. 

As for appropriate sensitivity rating, that really depends on factors such as:

1) How loud you wish to play your music
2) How far away you are from your speakers
3) How much your room absorbs sound

For example - At the last few shows, we've been using the Harbeth SHL5plus model (86dB sensitive, 6-ohm speaker) and had no problem filling the room (approx. 13' x 20') with music, sometimes quite loud (>90dB SPL transients).  We've even switched in the less efficient Harbeth P3ESR (83.5dB sensitive) with LIO and had excellent results, but those sounded better in the near-field and were not as good for playing at loud levels.

With the Volti Vittora's (104dB sensitive, 4-ohm speaker) and LIO, we were able to really rock out , with a very large and dynamic sound.

Recently, John Darko (DAR) mentioned using LIO with Magnepan MMGs (86dB, 4-ohm):

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/09/get-a-room-vinnie-rossi-lio-and-magnepan-mmg/

Quote from: John Darko
A simple question – can the LIO’s MOSFET power amplifier module drive the MMG to adequate SPLs? – demands a simple answer – yes. Capable of pushing a modest 45 wpc into a 4 Ohm load, we look to the LIO’s ultracapacitor power supply for the why: low output impedance translates to high current delivery capabilities which in turn allows dynamics to frequently turn on a dime. It’s not something you’ll find in every amplifier design.

But he also mentions:

Quote
If nothing below 90db gets you off then you’re gonna need a bigger amplifier.

I hope this helps,

Vinnie