[Ultralight]

Curious. If one were to run an (or a pair) Omega 12" subs along with Omega Alinico (or the RS5 or RS7 for that matter) speakers, and lets say one crosses over at 80hz, is there then any reason to get the XRS or would the monitor with its faster speed then become the preferred choice as the lower frequencies are taken out?   

Thanks!
UL

[DBC]

Curious. If one were to run an (or a pair) Omega 12" subs along with Omega Alinico (or the RS5 or RS7 for that matter) speakers, and lets say one crosses over at 80hz, is there then any reason to get the XRS or would the monitor with its faster speed then become the preferred choice as the lower frequencies are taken out?   

Thanks!
UL

First off I realize everyone's idea of satisfying Bass can vary widely based on personal taste and music preferences. I listen to a lot of Blues, Blues Rock and Rock. My baseline (reference) for good Bass is what is typically produced by a good live band in a smallish to medium sized music venue. I go to at least 2 live shows a month. This type of Live Bass is difficult and depending on the listening room sometimes impossible to reproduce in a home environment.

I ran Klipsch RF-7 towers for a long time. Placed 4 feet out from the front wall they produced a very wide & deep soundstage but lacked Bass punch. If I slid them up to within 2 feet of the front wall Bass really started to come alive but the width & depth of the soundstage started to collapse. So my preferred compromise was to place them 4 feet off the front wall. About 4 years ago I purchased twin Mid Bass Modules (operating from 150 to 50 Hz) and twin Subs (operating from 50 Hz and down). As you will see from the photos I now have Omega Alnico Monitors.

So I've had full range floor standers and now Monitors. My current set-up with Monitors and subs are my preferred arrangement for these reasons. The monitors are faster and easier to place where they image best without worrying about Bass reproduction. The Subs can be placed where they produce the best quality Bass while at the same time enhancing the imaging and soundstage of the Monitors.

If not done correctly, adding a Sub can actually sound like Crap. First thing is if you get any Sub hum then you have a ground loop or a sub issue that must be resolved. So assuming you have no Sub Hum the next step is to connect your sub via speaker level (speaker wires). This way the Monitors and Sub are reproducing the same amp signature. I'm sure there are exceptions but in my case speaker level connections to the Sub have always provided a seamless integration between Sub and Monitors. Each time I have tried Line Level connections (interconnects) to the Sub with various amps it is just too often that you can hear the Sub separately from the Monitors.

Next step is to do everything possible to disperse the Sub's energy evenly out into the listen space to avoid unnecessarily exciting the floor and walls. A downward firing Sub will quickly cause the floor to vibrate and transfer that vibration to the walls. Vibrating floor and or walls will quickly muddy the Bass at the listening position. I have found Sub isolation platforms from Auralex to be effective. They prevent cabinet vibrations from my forward firing 15" Subs from being transferred into the floor. They also act to dissipate the Bass energy from my downward firing Mid Bass Modules out into the listening space rather than directly into the floor.

In the lower photo you will see that the Mid Bass Module is a good foot off the front wall. I found that any closer to the front wall would cause the wall to vibrate and this would muddy up the Bass considerably at the listening position (sound like crap). So the bottom line is you don't want to be listening to your Sub hum or room surfaces vibrate (these were not on the original recording). If I were purchasing a Music Sub today, it would definitely be the DeepOmega 12 because of it's speed and ability to play well up into the 150 Hz range for added Mid Bass Punch.

So my point here is that Monitor's properly integrated with the right Sub can sound wonderful. But as someone I used to know would say "It's not as easy as falling off a log".

[Ultralight]

Thanks!  So your take is that if one has subs, then no reason to go with XRS?  Nice setup by the way.

UL

[DBC]

So your take is that if one has subs, then no reason to go with XRS?

UL

Ultralight,

Well not exactly. I've had more than a few Subs in my music system over the years and many of them were not Musical. To be musical they have to be fast, this is why I suggest the Omega Sub because I trust Louis to build a Sub that integrates well with his speakers which are also know for their speed.

Based on my experience and music taste, If I were building a system from scratch I would opt for Monitors first. I would set them up in my listening room and over a period of time experiment with placement to see how they perform in my specific room. Depending on room size, speaker placement and personal music taste Monitors alone will be all that is required for many people. If you find your taste & listening habits require more Mid Bass and Bass punch then the addition of a DeepOmega Sub would offer your best chance to achieve the "Highest Quality Bass" IMO. Monitors are placed where they sound best, Sub is placed where it produces the highest quality Bass for a given room.

The main point I was trying to make in my earlier post was: If you think you can purchase a DeepOmega, slam it into a corner and not consider the connection method and/or placement issues I mention then you may be very disappointed with the results. For some dealing with a Sub may be too complicated, if so then stick with the Monitors and or XRS.

I think it was Forum Member hdrider that purchased XRS, loves them and has since purchased a DeepOmega 8 Sub. I know his system was down due to home remodeling (not sure if he has it back up)? Would be interesting to hear hdrider's impressions of the DeepOmega with his XRS.

[seikosha]

Thanks!  So your take is that if one has subs, then no reason to go with XRS?  Nice setup by the way.

UL

One thing I would say is that having both XRS's and little Monitors I will say that in addition to the bass the XRS's add some warmth to the sound.  I'm not sure at what frequency that warmth covers, but it could be high enough where no sub would really cover it and it might be something to consider depending on your ancillary equipment and room.

[DBC]

One thing I would say is that having both XRS's and little Monitors I will say that in addition to the bass the XRS's add some warmth to the sound.  I'm not sure at what frequency that warmth covers, but it could be high enough where no sub would really cover it and it might be something to consider depending on your ancillary equipment and room.

Great point seikosha,

My Mid Bass Modules (now out of production) augment my Omega Monitors in the 150 to 50 Hz range (Mid Bass) and add the Fullness & Warmth you describe. Otherwise my Monitors do tend to be a bit lean / dry because I have a larger listening room.

Bass below 80 Hz does not add much Scale and or Warmth in my experience. The Scale and Warmth reside up in the Mid Bass region above 80 Hz. The Deep Omega is currently the only Sub on the market that is designed to and capable of playing cleanly up into the 150 Hz range.

This Interactive Frequency Chart is a nice reference, note at the bottom the frequency range for Warmth:

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

[DaveC113]

One thing I would say is that having both XRS's and little Monitors I will say that in addition to the bass the XRS's add some warmth to the sound.  I'm not sure at what frequency that warmth covers, but it could be high enough where no sub would really cover it and it might be something to consider depending on your ancillary equipment and room.

Right, the baffle size is different which means the frequency response is going to be different depending on the baffle step frequencies involved. I'd probably prefer the XRS just for the baffle size if nothing else.

[Canada Rob]

Otherwise my Monitors do tend to be a bit lean / dry because I have a larger listening room.

Hi DBC,

It's appears clear to me you've got the subwoofer integration down pretty good - it's good information you provide here. 

I'm not sure how big your listening room is, mine is 13' x 17' x 8H with my system on the long wall with the acoustics being semi-live.  I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but my Super Zen/Alnico Monitor combo is anything but lean and dry and I don't run a sub.  The Alnico drivers have the flattest frequency response of all the Omega drivers and leanness/dryness are not a hallmark of this driver. 

One trend I see on the Omega AudioCircle is discussions of amp/speaker relationship (which, of course is essential), but not much about source (which is usually digital).  I've had quite a few DACs and CD players go through my hands, and to be honest, few have lit my fire.  The two DACs I currently have check all the boxes for a great digital front end and both have that analog warmth and fluidity that make them so listenable.  In fewer words, front end will affect everything down line.

[RDavidson]

Looks like he's running an Oppo 105 with a Decware Zen. Should be a very nice sounding setup. Room looks fairly large and a bit live, which can shift tonality at the listening seat a lot (compared to your setup, Rob). It could also be that DBC prefers a bigger midbass presentation. For the music he enjoys and experiences at concerts, recreating what he hears at these concerts is his goal. Could dialing-in his system to mimic these concerts skew the presentation of other recordings / music types? Yes. I think that's very possible.

[DBC]

Canada Rob wrote:

I'm not sure how big your listening room is, mine is 13' x 17' x 8H with my system on the long wall with the acoustics being semi-live.  I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but my Super Zen/Alnico Monitor combo is anything but lean and dry and I don't run a sub.  The Alnico drivers have the flattest frequency response of all the Omega drivers and leanness/dryness are not a hallmark of this driver. 

One trend I see on the Omega AudioCircle is discussions of amp/speaker relationship (which, of course is essential), but not much about source (which is usually digital).  I've had quite a few DACs and CD players go through my hands, and to be honest, few have lit my fire.  The two DACs I currently have check all the boxes for a great digital front end and both have that analog warmth and fluidity that make them so listenable.  In fewer words, front end will affect everything down line.

Hi Rob,

You make a lot of good points and I appreciate your participation and input here.

My listening room is 16' x 22' with Vaulted ceiling. Speakers are placed along the short wall. Along one long wall is a large opening into the Kitchen / Dining area that is equally as large. Acoustically my room is on the Live side (wood floor, a couple of throw rugs minimal acoustic treatments). I am using the Oppo 105D as a source and would not use the term Warm to describe it's signature. So I would agree that my room room size, room acoustics and my source have a lot to do with the Alnico Monitors sounding a bit on the lean / dry side (for my taste) in my listening space.

So I want to be clear I'm not Faulting the Omega Monitors. I stated based on my experience if I were starting from scratch I would opt for a Monitor over the XRS and live with it in my listening room for a while. I believe most people will find the Monitor's by themselves to have more than adequate Bass. RDavidson is correct in that I'm going for more of a "Live Gig" sound so that is a personal taste and will not suite everyone.

I really like the Transparency, Clarity and Resolution that my Oppo and Super Zen and more recently Oppo and Peachtree 220se provide. I have tried a number of other (Warmer) sources but always felt I was sacrificing something in one or more of these areas (Transparency, Clarity, Resolution). This is of course a matter of personal taste, others may find it a fair trade-off.

Since I'm augmenting the 150 to 50 Hz region (as the DeepOmega 12 is capable of doing) this adds a lot of warmth and impact while maintaining all the Transparency, Clarity & Resolution that I appreciate in my existing gear. I actually find that I listen at lower volumes now that the sound is fuller in the Mid Bass Region. I'm simply suggesting that for me I prefer the Monitor concept up front with the possibly to add a DeepOmega 12 later if your personal taste leans in that direction. The DeepOmega has a lot of placement and output flexibility (volume adjustment) allowing one to really Dial it into a specific listening space.

The original question was "If one run Subs, any reason for XRS over monitors?" If you plan to use a $300 Best Buy Sub I would say forget the sub and go with the XRS if you are concerned about having enough Bass. But the Monitors with a quality Sub like the DeepOmega 12 can sound great if set up properly which may take a bit of time and effort as I explained earlier.

[Canada Rob]

Looks like he's running an Oppo 105 with a Decware Zen. Should be a very nice sounding setup. Room looks fairly large and a bit live, which can shift tonality at the listening seat a lot (compared to your setup, Rob). It could also be that DBC prefers a bigger midbass presentation. For the music he enjoys and experiences at concerts, recreating what he hears at these concerts is his goal. Could dialing-in his system to mimic these concerts skew the presentation of other recordings / music types? Yes. I think that's very possible.

When I first got my Super Alnico Monitors I set them up upstairs in an acoustically live room on the short wall of a 13' X 25' room that opens out into a stairwell and hall at the opposite end.  I had them on 24" stands (I didn't have my Skylans then) hooked up to a solid state amp.  The results were the same - warm, full, and rich, yet not lacking in detail.  The Alnicos were set up in the place of the Super 3i in this picture.  Not that far off DBCs venue as far as I can tell.  All I'm saying, is the native sound signature of this speaker is not lean and dry.

[ozoid]

A few quick thoughts as I take a break from breaking in my Alnico monitors and Super Zen, which were first turned on a week ago.

I don't have subs.

It's still early, but the tonal accuracy — especially in the bass clef region — of the Omegas is remarkable. The Zen is playing a part, too, I'm sure. I've been listening to an authorized release of a Grateful Dead concert I attended in early ’71 at the Capitol Theater north of NYC, a venue with a well-deserved reputation for magnificent acoustics. I had a very good seat and very clear memory of Phil Lesh's bass tone at that time, and everything in my playback chain is working together to match my memory to an astonishing degree. When I've listened to other recordings where I don't have personal memories of the performance, the identity of the bassist is immediate: Ray Brown, Charlie Haden, Charlie Mingus, etc. all sound like themselves, even when they're going for different effects by varying how and where they strike the string. I'm also happy with what I'm hearing from symphonic bass sections, baritone sax, tuba, etc. And I'm only a week in.

It's important to remember that while the fundamental of a bass note may fall within the range of a sub, that fundamental note also carries overtones that will extend much further up the frequency scale, well into the tweeter's domain in a 2-way system. Those bass overtones are an important component in the overall harmonic scheme of the music. One of the most important virtues of single-drivers is that all frequencies are coming from the same driver. As good as the Omega subs are (and they were very good when I heard them with Alnico monitors at ZLS's house), they won't quite match the primary driver.

When I acquired the Omegas, I gave my electrostatic, single-driver Acoustat 3s to my friend John, a film composer, producer, and engineer whose primary instrument is electric and acoustic bass. He first plugged in a pair of (non-Omega) subs, but quickly decided to go without them. "The bass sounded out of tune," he said. For what it's worth, I never had subs with the Acoustats either, and for a time I inflicted my bass playing on a paying public.

Still, it all comes down to personal taste and and the live music you're listening to. I'm more accustomed to hearing un-amplified acoustic bass or electric bass played through a single speaker driven by a dedicated amp. But if I spent more time in rock & blues venues today, I'd probably want subs too. I'm sure DBC's system sounds magnificent.

Rob makes a good point about DACs. I'll just say that I was anxious to learn if my little Meridian Explorer would stand up to feeding the new amp & speakers. It sounds like a champ, especially since Audirvana Plus is feeding it 24/176.4. What it's doing to old recordings from the ’30s and even the ’20s is amazing.

[DBC]

ozoid wrote:

It's important to remember that while the fundamental of a bass note may fall within the range of a sub, that fundamental note also carries overtones that will extend much further up the frequency scale, well into the tweeter's domain in a 2-way system. Those bass overtones are an important component in the overall harmonic scheme of the music. One of the most important virtues of single-drivers is that all frequencies are coming from the same driver. As good as the Omega subs are (and they were very good when I heard them with Alnico monitors at ZLS's house), they won't quite match the primary driver.

ZLS wrote on 02/22/15:

Hi DBC,

I received the Auralex Sub Dude isolation platforms and I am listening to them in my system.  I want to thank you for recommending them.  They do make everything sound clearer and more focused.  I hear improvements not just in the bass, but also up into the midrange. 

ozoid,

All good points, appreciate your input. I had exchanged a few emails with ZLS back in February of this year and encouraged him to try Isolation Platforms under his DeepOmega 12's to minimize the possibility of exciting the floor (vibration). I was curious if your listening session with ZLS was before or after February 22, 2015 which was when he installed the platforms and sent me the above comment?

What I found in my system was the 12" downward firing Mid Bass Modules I use were exciting the floor causing floor vibration producing what I call "Low Frequency Noise" that as you describe "Does not quite match the primary driver". Once I got my downward firing MBM's on Isolation Platforms the unwanted room interaction was eliminated and integration with the Alnico Monitors is now quite seamless. ZLS seemed to have similar positive results based on his response to me above.

Thanks.

[ozoid]

I heard ZLS's rig before he added the Sub-Dudes and I have no doubt that the platforms clean up the sound. A few days ago I added some monitor isolation pads similar to some that Auralex sells that both isolate the speakers from the cabinet they're sitting on and correct the angle to my listening chair. Definite improvement.

But I think we're talking about two different things. You could perfect the room acoustics and component isolation and you'd still have to face the fact that you're mixing drivers with at least slightly different characteristics. It's not just the crossover; when I visited Decware World Headquarters we listened to the Super Zen through two-way monitors that Steve Deckert has managed to design without a crossover. They were very good; but not quite as coherent as a single-driver Omega.

What we have here is a classic audio trade-off: tunefulness vs. presence. And a lot of how you manage that compromise will depend on the live music you're listening to. My tickets to the Chicago Symphony one season were only about 10-12 rows back, directly below the bass section. I'm quite certain if I had bought gear that year that I would have voted for more bass presence. Last night I listened to Tracy Nelson's vividly recorded "Victim of the Blues," a tremendous blues-rock album. I think the Alnicos did a great job of retrieving the very wide range of electric bass tones on that recording. It's very difficult to achieve that kind of control in a live setting and most players in that situation will opt for presence over tunefulness. As I said, if I were going to a lot of blues and rock venues today, I'd probably be building a system that would sound like those performances and it would look very much like yours.

[ozoid]

A correction: some of the tunes on "Victim of the Blues" feature an acoustic bass. Can't recommend the album too highly. She's a contemporary of Joplin and shares a lot of musical qualities with her. Less charisma so she never made it big. but she managed to keep away from heroin so we get to hear her as her voice and musical approach matured.

[EzraS]

Ozoid, I believe from an earlier post that your Alnico monitors were constructed with a non standard wider baffle cabinet used in some of the Outlaw speakers. If I am correct in this assumption, do you notice any difference in the tone or range from the standard monitors? I ask as I now have a Decware Zen amp and anticipate making a decision to shortly order a set of Omega Alnicos. Thanks

[ozoid]

I didn't A-B between the standard & wide-baffle alnicos. But I did run it past Jeff Day, who reviewed an Omega speaker for 6Moons a few years ago that initially drew my attention to Omega, and he thought it was a good idea. Most important, I talked about it with Louis and I strongly encourage you to give him a call.

All I can say 10 days since I hooked the Zen to the wide-baffle Alnicos is that they are terrifically musical, effortlessly retrieving the kind of information that gives sense to musical phrases, rather than producing a series of audio effects.

Sorry if that last sentence is a bit opaque. What I'm trying to get at would be clearer if I related it to specific musical moments. Steve Deckert asked me for some listening notes and I'll post them on this forum too once the speakers are a bit more broken in. Last week, I could hear them settle in by the hour, now it's more like a daily change.

I hope I didn't offend anyone who's running subs with their alnico's. Certainly not my intent. I only wanted to express the notion that there is a tradeoff, just as there is in just about everything in fine audio. Lots of very good reasons to run subs, but also some equally good reasons not to. At least in my view.

[DBC]

I hope I didn't offend anyone who's running subs with their alnico's. Certainly not my intent. I only wanted to express the notion that there is a tradeoff, just as there is in just about everything in fine audio. Lots of very good reasons to run subs, but also some equally good reasons not to. At least in my view.

ozoid,

I can assure you there has been no offense taken here. I appreciate the respectful exchange of differing opinions based on each individual's audio experiences. You made a couple good points in Post #36 above. Just been too busy at work to provide a proper response. I'll get around to that in the next couple days.

[EzraS]

Ozoid, Thank you for your considered response to my reply. I look forward to your further listening observations regarding your Alnicos.I would particularly be interested in your impressions of the Omegas with reference to your experience with electrostatic speakers as I greatly enjoyed my Quad ESLs within their limitations until they became dysfunctional and were consigned to my garage.

[ozoid]

Ozoid, Thank you for your considered response to my reply. I look forward to your further listening observations regarding your Alnicos.I would particularly be interested in your impressions of the Omegas with reference to your experience with electrostatic speakers as I greatly enjoyed my Quad ESLs within their limitations until they became dysfunctional and were consigned to my garage.

When I first spoke with Louis, not 30-seconds passed before he said his speakers had "electrostatic" speed. And I believe the Alnicos do. And they also have the coherence I mentioned in my first post in this thread that the Acoustats have in spades. The Acoustats are very analytical so they're ideal as studio monitors, which is how my friend John will use them. (He doesn't mess around with 2nd rate equipment; his board is about $250K.) Acoustats absolutely need six feet or more behind them. I've moved twice since I bought them and have never had enough room for them since and don't expect to again. John has a very large control room. Speaking of analytical: when I visited Decware I discovered Steve still has his Acoustats set up in his listening room.

My tastes have changed; I'm now looking for a rig more musical than analytical and more forgiving of poor engineering.

The Acoustats required a lot of power, which is really expensive if you want to use a valve amplifier, and I'd finally come to the conclusion that it was solid-state amps that were mainly responsible for the fatigue that set in during the third album in a session. Of course with the Zen, I'm now limited to high-efficiency speakers, and even with the Alnicos I'm discovering the Zen has some limitations on 2nd generation (or later) rock and large-scale, late 19th century symphonies, especially if the recording was mastered at a low level. So down the road I may acquire a second, more powerful amp as an alternative. But I doubt I'll sell the Zen. Right now I'm listening to some mid-’50s bebop quartets & quintets following a Beethoven Piano Trio, and even with everything not fully broken in, it sounds terrific and I expect to still want the Zen for chamber music-scaled recordings. The music is really flowing and the transients are precise.

The Acoustats have a somewhat steely tone, with maybe a bit of plastic. The Alnicos remind me more of a very old stringed instrument, wood that's been vibrating for centuries, like the 17th century bass I once heard played about 10 ft. away. (That's not to say that the Omega cabinet is vibrating the way a bass body does and should.) The Alnicos simply more musical, much more appropriate for enjoying a recording rather than making one.