[grub]

The Ellis isn't built for extreme volume though right?  

I remember somewhere in this thread that a speaker was removed from contention because of difficulty playing extrememly loud (peaks of 115db)...so wouldn't this remove the 1801 because of volume restrictions?
-->grub

[EProvenzano]

Thanks Grub. I didn't realize the 1801 may have been removed because of it's SPL capability. If this is the case I would agree that the 1801's do not play as loud as some of the other speakers mentioned.
That said tho, I'm suprised that huge SPL's of that nature would merit much importance when judging the quality of a speaker's sound. I guess a large listening room would deserve more sound pressure....
Carry on folks, I'm intrigued by all the responses.
BR,
EP

[roopaudio]

Well, I spend quite a bit of my time working on the digital -> analog conversion stage; a substantial part of improving this conversion process involves transient response and impact of music.  I need to be able to distinguish when the conversion process is failing on transient response - if the speakers exhibit compression or the sound quality starts falling apart, this inhibits the testing phase.  As JohnR has often stated, orchestral pieces have among the most dynamic passages.  A +25 to +30 dB above continuous listening level is not unheard of when it comes to full orchestral recordings.

Rup

[doug s.]

he rupp, check out the panasonic pro-audio speakers - particularly the ws-at300 - impressive specs...

http://www.panasonic.com/proaudio/products.asp

also curious as to yr reactions to the met-7.7 & reference virtuoso - supposedly dynamics, free from compression, is one of the met-7.7's strong suits..

regards,

doug s.

[Tweak1]

I owned a pair of Reference 3A mm De Capos for several years. The "i" version is even better. By June, Nearfield will be introducing a new speaker, not sure if the final version will be floor/monitor , hopefully they'll offer both. I'm pretty sure there will be a sub- $5K model! I have a first run prototype. IMO, it would be worth the wait.

[lcrim]

I have heard and been very impressed by the Sonus Faber Electa Amator II but simply can't afford them.  I have the the Concertino's but the EA II's would deserve massive system upgrades to take advantage of their quality.  Now they've been discontinued.  They might be over 50 lbs as well.
Also the JMLabs Mini Utopia's might squeek under the price point but weigh more than 50 lbs.  They are efficient enough for less powerful amplification and sound extraordinary.  I would love to build a "little" 2 channel system around them.

[roopaudio]

lcrim - You're right about the EAII's being wonderful sounding speakers.  They are still on my short list, among a few others.  And regarding the 50lbs per, I meant excluding the stand - I just need to have some sort of mobility with them.  However, I found the bottom octave of the EAII's not as articulate as some of the monitors - it is definitely tight, and the quantity is plentiful.  However, I thought the result of this extention was a slight (and I mean slight) loss in midbass texture and detail.  For example, the flaghsip Sonus monitor is the Guarneri - it doesn't play nearly as low as the EAII, but I thought the lower mid-bass on the Guarneri to be extremely well defined - it's still what I consider as one of the benchmark speaker with regards to that bass articulation.  Conversely, I would think that the lower extention would definitely make the EAII more satisfying to listen to versus the Guarneri when played with certain types of music.  However, I've prioritized the need for accuracy in the top nine audible octaves over bass extention - just a matter of taste.

Doug - You offered me your short list, so I'll offer mine:
Diapason Adamantes III    (auditioned)
Diapason Adamantes Limited  (NOT auditioned)
Dynaudio Special 25 (auditioned)
Dynaudio Confidence 3 (NOT auditioned)

Certain studies published by various universities suggest a correlation between time/phase alignment of bass, and accurate stereo aural illusion.  The ear is able to detect phase/time alignment until about 1.5KHz-1.8KHz.  My personal listening experiences tend to agree with these studies, and so after the preliminary list of speakers I enjoyed, I tried to focus in more on monitors with time/phase alighnment to 2000Hz.  It's nearly impossible for a speaker to be completely phase aligned throughout the lower seven octaves, but usually at about 100Hz or so the crossover can be gently tweaked to greatly improve the phase alignment of certain drivers from about 100Hz-1000Hz+ (dependant on driver).  

Before passing judgement on the validity of phase alignment, please think on your listening experiences and if the entire audio system (including recording phase of test material) has been specifically recorded to be phase aligned.

Ok, well that's enough ranting for now

[doug s.]

hi rupp,

still interested in a more in-depth opinion from ya about the sequerra met 7.7 & the reference speakers...

also, i'd consider the proac 1sc's, but, they may be too inefficient for ya...

also, i'm confused how tweeking the x-over at 100hz on a small 2-way would affect phasing, as most 2-way's cross over somewhere between 1.5k & 4.5k...

regards,

doug s.

btw, if yure interested, i can point ya in the direction of someone who may sell a pair of slightly cosmetically challenged adamantes lll's w/dedicated stands for ~$1500.

[Tweak1]

Roopaudio, I am laughing my ass off over your speaker tweaking comments (I mean slight...), and a slight cross-over adjustment.

The various sonic differences you mention can all be compensated/adjusted with any number tweaks like a power conditioner, power cords, interconnects, isolation devices under components, room treatments, HDLs,  AND speakers.   Amps, preamps, tube rolling and source components will also provide the sonic adjustments you speak of.

Further,  time alginment can be adjusted by correct positioning of the face between speaker face and listener position. As little as +/- 5 degrees verticle will correct time alignment. Also height- where the listener's head  falls in relation to the mid-driver and tweeter.

The last thing anyone should do is mess with a cross-over.  

[roopaudio]

Roopaudio, I am laughing my ass off over your speaker tweaking comments (I mean slight...), and a slight cross-over adjustment.

Tweak - I'm sorry if there's a misunderstanding.  I don't mean to alter any prespecified designs, or change any factory crossovers.  I did mean, however, that when designing a crossover, certain factors such as phase coherence and impedance correction don't necessarily center around the crossover frequency.  

Further, time alginment can be adjusted by correct positioning of the face between speaker face and listener position. As little as +/- 5 degrees verticle will correct time alignment. Also height- where the listener's head falls in relation to the mid-driver and tweeter

.

I did not mean phase/time alignment to mean strictly time alignment, but more of the degree of coherency of phase.  The coherency of phase is something completely different than time alignment.  Time alignment deals with the difference in distancing of speakers to each respective ear - phase coherancy is a result of the drivers being integrated with a crossover.  You can't change phase coherancy by placing the speakers in a different location, and to imply that you can is ignorant and blatantly wrong.  If you can provide documentation or illustrations that are in definitive contradiction to the above statement, I would love to see them.  As for power cords, tube rolling,  etc - I think that's absurd to want to asymmetrically equalize the frequency spectrum.  Why would you want an amplifier that does not provide linear gain? Why would you want to skew one component to balance the skewed factors of another component?  Wouldn't it make more sense to have each component be completely musical and balanced?

I'm not sure if you bothered to read through the thread, but I was speaking of ready-made monitors that I had auditioned.  I definitely did not go to a dealer or audition and change the crossover.  As for a crossover, there are frequencies which specify the roll-off.  But certain crossovers, even first order ones, can be modified (made more complex) to compensate for impedence dips and phase mis-alignment - these values do not necessarily have to do with the paramaters of the roll-off frequency.

Regards

Rup

[JohnR]

I don't see anything wrong with tweaking a factory crossover, assuming you have some idea of what you're doing of course. It is, after all, just a circuit, not magic.

Rup, where did this end up? Did you decide what to buy? (Are you buying something?)

JohnR

[roopaudio]

John - I'm planning on a purchase for a while now.  But I'm working on a CDP and I want the voicing as accurate as possible, so I've been searching for the past three months.  I plan on getting a pair soon, or possibly purchasing two pairs in the event I'll not be able to audition them and selling whichever doesn't work out.  The time frame is finally beginning to press on me, as the new listening studio will be ready in about two months.

[Mad DOg]

if the Ellis 1801 is on this list, I'd like to add the Onix Reference 1. these are the best monitors i've owned...also Jackman had these over at his home this past weekend and thought very highly of them when he compared them to the Ellis 1801s and new ACI Sapphires.

[Rob Babcock]

I keep hearing good things about the Onix Ref's, but I don't know where they're sold; they're not on the AV123 website.  Where can I find info on them?

A certain VMPS dealer that frequents this site conducted a comparison between some Onix Ref's & RM 40s, if I'm not mistaken, and the Ref's aquitted themselves pretty well.  I believe all in attendance preferred the VMPS but considered the Onix very much in the ballpark.

[KeithR]

I just ordered a pair of Avantgarde Solos---not sure if that qualifies as a monitor.

It is the best speaker I have heard under 10k easily.  Coherant, great dynamics, detailed, and an excellent midrange.   I truly was shocked how good it was.

Easily beat my 1.3SEs.  Funny thing is I was auditioning floorstanders (including Wilson Sophias, Talon Khorus Xs, and Joseph Audio RM33sis) and ended up with a pseudo monitor.

The built-in 250 watt amps were a concern, but with built in active crossover and gain controls, means placement in my room will be easy.  Also means the amp is already matched with the speaker, so no guessing games. Bass is down to 30hz, so plenty for my space.  I am going to try a Wadia direct actually, as well as my Cary SLP98 and Cary 306/200 combo.

Anyone else heard them?  Mandatory audition if not...

[Mad DOg]

I keep hearing good things about the Onix Ref's, but I don't know where they're sold; they're not on the AV123 website.  Where can I find info on them?

A certain VMPS dealer that frequents this site conducted a comparison between some Onix Ref's & RM 40s, if I'm not mistaken, and the Ref's aquitted themselves pretty well.  I believe all in attendance preferred the VMPS but considered the Onix very much in the ballpark.

I believe I was the individual who brought over the Ref 1s to the party. Yes, I preferred the RM40s due to their smoothness and sweetness but enjoyed the larger soundstage and sweet spot that the Ref 1s threw up at lower and moderate volumes. While the RM40s can certainly handle WAY MORE power and extend much lower, the bass the Ref 1s provide is a bit tighter IMHO.

In regards to where you'd find more info on the Refs, AV123 has them listed at their their website here under future products. they are available now, but i believe the folks over there have been too busy to update their website.

http://www.av123.com/about_news.php

[Rob Babcock]

I think I read your review, but I wanted to be careful about quoting a company website lest I be accused of "shilling" for them.  I imagine most wouldn't consider an owner to be "unbiased"; but indeed, if the owner isn't biased then the product must not be very good!

It was a really good read, and I was just curious is Mr. Casler would mind sharing his impressions.  But I don't want to put him on the spot; his is a dealer of VMPS, after all.

[John Casler]

Hi Rob,

I have been "on the spot" before and never blinked (but I did wink   )

It is true that we did set up a small comparison of the Onix Refs and the VMPS Ribbons recently.  I think it would be premature for me to comment on the comparison in great detail, since I didn't take the "sweet seat" at all.

Our primary goal was to just provide a condition to compare the "sound qualities" of the ribbons to the sound of the drivers in the Ref Ones.

I think we accomplished this, but other performance capabilities were compromised due to inability to provide exactly the same speaker placement for each speaker (the Refs were placed outside the RM40s over 12 feet apart and 10 feet from the listening position)

This would put me at a severe disadvantage in "strongly" suggesting a speaker.  That said, I can say that the Little Onix speakers were beautiful to look at and from my listening position, (standing to the rear and left of the sweet spot) they seemed to have a very good tonal balance and certainly had more horizontal and vertical dispersion than the Ribbons.

Since all my personal listening is done rather nearfeild and right in the sweet spot, I cannot critically comment further.

I did try to comment on the comparison on the AV123 forum, but never received a password back from the site.

In reading what RUP is looking for, I think he is in a tough crowd.

The biggest eliminator is the SPL requirements.

Firstly, I find it difficult to beleive that the 626R was not able to offer the loudness performance he was looking for.  I think that to acheive those SPLs he may need to think about the Genelec or powered M&Ks (too bright for me)

Since we did not listen to the Ref Ones at any volume level approaching that, again I could not attest to their capabilities in that particular area.

But I can say that they are one sweet little speaker and certainly in a similar area as the 626Rs (to bad I don't have a pair of those to compare)

Mad Dog has promised to bring them by again, and this time I'll spend a little time in the "prime position" and offer more a more biased opinion.

By "biased", I mean based on my "listening biases".  

I too like to listen at reasonably loud levels.  I sit exactly in the sweet seat.  I look for imaging, soundstage, definition, dynamics, inner detail/resolving power, and frequency response.

So Rup could certainly put this speaker "in the mix" and from what I heard, it has the "potential" of being a contender.

As an after thought, I too would think (I haven't heard these) that the 626Rs with the FST tweeter would offer an improved performance.

In fact I would suggest that with Auricaps, Soundcoat, and the FST the 626RFST might be just the speaker. (List $2298) if used in a reasonably sized room (not too large).

The new FST tweeter will take over a small amount of load from the Neopanel and it has the ability to play "LOUD" (96db compared to around 94db for the spiral)

The ability to play loud without stress/straining is what Rup was talking about in his 626r audition.  While some of this can be due to the amp used, (I would suggest at least 200wpc) the rest can be set up and speaker performance.

As a joke    I thought I might suggest that for a speaker stand you (Rup) use an RM1.  Then I remebered that Brian at one time suggested the possibility of stacking the 626rs head to head, so that may not be a joke at all.

The critical area would be over all height and whether or not we would have lobing.  With the FST on both the dealer pricing would still be almost 1/2 Rups posted limit. (even "list" at $3978 is well below)

Actually if the two "head to head" FSTs would work without harmful interaction, that combo would be very interesting.

Only Brian could answer that for sure.

But then, at that price range ($6000) you are at RM40TRT territory and there must be some reason RTK wants to stay with "monitors".

Oh Well  Good Java this morning

Regards,
 
John Casler
 
VMPS LA CA USA
SUMMIT Audio Video
800-320-6884
[email protected]
http://my.register.com/summitaudiovideo.com/index.html

[KeithR]

BTW, the Solos were reviewed and said it can 108db peaks as I recall...

[totti1965]

hallo roop,

please tell my, what your favourite monitor speaker is at this moment?
I am vry interested!

yours,

Thorsten