[macrojack]

Does anyone here have a Tesla? Interested to read your opinion of the car.

[RDavidson]

I'm sure it is a great car, but the company and its business practices are questionable :

http://nlpc.org/stories/2015/02/23/dismal-earnings-and-calls-end-subsidies-hound-musk-tesla

Most people just see the cool cars and technologies without looking at what's really "under the hood."

[macrojack]

NLPC is a known right wing muckraker which essentially means you are introducing political posturing into a simple inquiry about the ownership experience any of our members may be able to provide. Please remove the post and leave the way clear for the topic I intended to pursue.

Now that my focus has moved to solar electric panels and energy self-sufficiency, I want to get some vicarious experience about the better electric  and hybrid vehicle options. I have a brother-in-law in Albuquerque who owns a Chevy Volt and a sister-in-law in some unpronounceable town near Tacoma who just bought a BMW electric car. Both love their respective rides but the Volt guy has had his for 2.5 years - the BMW owner is only about 6 weeks deep at this point. Her views are more subject to alteration, I imagine.

I started asking about the Tesla because I regard it as the grail of electrics. Any personal experience from members about other electric vehicles is likewise solicited.

[Atlplasma]

One of my neighbors arrived with a Tesla S. Pretty soon his next-door neighbor had one. I believe there are a couple more in the community now. The thing is out of my price range, but people seem to like the car and its build quality.

Do you have a showroom in your area? I'm waiting to see how the Model X ends up pricing out.

[TomS]

We have a supercharger station right down the road from us, so I see quite a few as we pass by there frequently. I asked a couple guys about them and both had nothing but great things to say about their cars and service. It is quite weird though, to hear them talk about upgrading their cars in place, with the next big feature, etc. Range was every third word or so ... truly ymmv according to them, as it's apparently hard to resist the power.

[JLM]

What is the overall environmental impact of a Tesla (including nasty battery material mining/disposal and considering power must come from somewhere) compared to other cars? 

Lots of gambles involved with electrics and Tesla in particular:

Future DeLorean?  (Company could fold, may not appreciate with time.)

Range anxiety, never as good as promised and don't know if I've ever seen a recharging station in real life, certainly not one of their "super stations."  Without "super stations" recharging is super slow, even a 240v/50A outlet takes 7 - 9 hours for a full charge, 80 hours from a 110v outlet.

Who provides service where you live and elsewhere?  Reports say that bugs are being reported and the cars are being constantly updated (like software).

[macrojack]

JLM - I think all of your concerns are valid except one. The battery contamination argument pales in comparison to environmental damage done by successful petroleum extraction, to say nothing of the impact caused by the weekly oil spills.

Atlplasma - We don't even have an Apple store or Staples in our area and there are no European auto dealers either. Toyota, Honda and Nissan are here as well as Subaru, Hyundai and Kia. Diesel pickups made in the USA rule around here. That's why I have to ask outsiders who are closer to civilization.

TomS - I have only seen 2 Teslas and have never spoken with an owner. They sure look nice.

[RDavidson]

NLPC is a known right wing muckraker which essentially means you are introducing political posturing into a simple inquiry about the ownership experience any of our members may be able to provide. Please remove the post and leave the way clear for the topic I intended to pursue.

Right wing or left, somewhere in the middle is a good mix of facts and opinions that people reading this thread might consider or want to look further into. For some, buying an (expensive) object isn't just about the object itself. My apologies for not including more complete info.

Here's some info regarding the cars. I'm not trying to muck up the thread. I just think that with all the tech and how the car is marketed, both the good and bad should be taken into account. As the model S is still quite new, there isn't much "long-term" test info around. I'm sure most of these issues Edmunds noted have been fixed since 2013. Note, they stated that they expected at least some quirks (due to new tech).

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html

Here's some very recent business info too from Fortune

http://fortune.com/2015/05/06/tesla-revenue-losses/

[JLM]

I've heard horror stories of Labrador being turned into a lunar landscape from strip mining to obtain lithium which is shipped around the world for processing into batteries with the disposal being the real environmental headache.  So my $18k 2009 Corolla (40 mpg) looked pretty good compared to a $27k Prius for city or rural use.

I'm still a believer in fuel cells (eventually) and diesel for now if you do mostly rural (long/constant speed) driving.  Subaru builds 50 mpg Outbacks in Indiana and sends ever one to Europe (where they bring a higher price).  Dang it, that would be my perfect car.   

For the environmental conscious I'd stop flying, period.  Then stop consuming cross-country/cross-planet goods, especially those delivered by plane or truck.  Next drive less, carpool more.  Take the bus, ride a bicycle, or just walk.  Best of all stay at home.

With 3% of the world's population the U.S. consumes 25% of all resources.      

[macrojack]

The incumbent paradigm always enjoys advantages. Nonetheless, I submit that the internal combustion engine has begun its descent to extinction. The clock is ticking and the needle is headed toward empty. Electricity, locally produced, is the way of the future. In all probability, we are headed toward regional, if not, local production. Self-sufficient communities are a likely development.
All of our energy sources initiate from the sun. The earth is a giant battery. We are draining that battery too quickly. Renewable energy is not an alternative -- it is the only alternative. Postponing that reality in favor of convenience for us and profits for our corporate masters will only create a more pressing and less well-managed response when we eventually mature sufficiently to acknowledge our plight. By then, it may well be too late to recover. Some say it already is. Still I think we should try, don't you?

[RDavidson]

Good points macrojack.

I'd like to see locally produced electricity take-off faster. Some small towns have already made it happen. While large cities can't do it quickly / economically, they should be able to do it in sectors.

And I agree, fossil fuels will eventually run out. We need to take action sooner, but as humans, we tend to complicate things way more than we should. It's frustrating, really, how much power relatively few people have over the world.

[JLM]

I'm with you macrojack 100%, we just need the technology to mature and economic incentives.  Until the energy/dollar available from more direct solar harvesting becomes convenient/cost competitive petroleum based fuels are the best we've got.

If your serious about hypermiling look at the Raht Racer human/electric hybrid bike (fully enclosed 3 wheeler, pedal starts, 90 mph, 50 mile range, seatbelt, air bag, A/C, quick recharges, and you get to exercise) or the $6800, 84 mpg Elio (another fully enclosed 3 wheeler with A/C, air bags, and seating for three).

The real challenge is finding ways to maintain our modern/western lifestyles that overall leaves tiny environmental footprints.  And frankly the estimates say only 2 billion humans are sustainable on our planet at our current levels of technology.  So stay at home, grow your own food, make your own clothes, invent sustainable technologies, and stop having babies.  We should have this licked by the end of the century, right?

[macrojack]

JLM - Some percentage of us need to join early instead of waiting for costs to drop to a more affordable level. I think the prices for people in sunny climates have already dropped to a reasonable level. Payback of 6-7 years isn't bad when you consider the back end promises 20-25 years (or more) of free electricity, which in those final few years could cost as much per annum as the initial cost of purchase and installation.

Hypermiling isn't really a goal of mine. My Prius is averaging 46.9 MPG and we only put about 4000 miles/year on it. The Tacoma gets about 28-30 MPG and gets used maybe half as much. Once I quit playing landlord, we will sell off the truck and live with one car. My wife walks the 2.2 miles to and from work and I just run a few errands during the week. Those miles driven figures are dropping.

My motto, crafted in hopeless resignation, is: "I can't keep it from happening --- but I may be able to keep it from happening to me". I plan for us to live well on $16,000 per year.

[tx2sturgis]

Anyone on an electronics-based forum and who doesnt realize the environmental damage world-wide from the electronics manfacturing industries is not really on high ground when it comes to avoiding electric vehicles.

Commercial airlines are another industry that practically rapes the global environment....but everyday people are the ones buying all those airline tickets.

However, comma, I'm a pragmatist. My main issue with electric road-legal vehicles is the fact that for the most part, they dont pay their fare share of road-use taxes. We need to fix that.

Carry on.

[macrojack]

Anyone on an electronics-based forum and who doesnt realize the environmental damage world-wide from the electronics manfacturing industries is not really on high ground when it comes to avoiding electric vehicles.

Commercial airlines are another industry that practically rapes the global environment....but everyday people are the ones buying all those airline tickets.

However, comma, I'm a pragmatist. My main issue with electric road-legal vehicles is the fact that for the most part, they dont pay their fare share of road-use taxes. We need to fix that.

Carry on.

Three thoughts come to mind regarding electric vehicles paying their fair share.
1.- There really aren't that many as a percentage of registered vehicles.

2.- Due to limited radius and relatively long recharge times, it seems unlikely that they are racking up a huge % of total miles driven.

3.- Most importantly, these are local, lightweight transportation. The real road damage and cost of repair is incurred by heavy truck traffic.

And who says they aren't paying their way anyhow? I would submit that the people who choose to own and operate electric vehicles are amongst the most conscious of their responsibilities and the most willing to pay their share.