[roymail]

I recently read a post on another audio forum that I found revealing if true.  What do you think?

10-20kHz is only one octave, and it's right at the edge of a human's ability to hear. In this range, the only thing in music is upper level harmonics in cymbals. There was a test done where they rolled off everything above 10kHz and people compared it to full frequency response samples. Although people could hear a difference in direct comparison, they had no preference between them when it came to sound quality.  Sound quality exists in the middle of the hearing range, not the fringes.

Being in my 60's, a recent hearing test revealed that I could barely hear to 15Khz.  But what I was hearing in the last part of that test makes me question how any music could exist in those upper frequencies.

One more thing I read said that top key of a piano and high register of a piccolo is around 4Khz.    Hmmm:)

[JRace]

I think that it only matters to you, and if you hear no benefit to having speakers that go above 10kHz then that is fine.

[Tyson]

Great chart!  One thing to note - these are the fundamentals of the notes played on these instruments - there are also harmonics produced above those fundamental frequencies that are important, too.

[mlundy57]

As I understand it, there are also sounds that, while they may not be consciously heard, our brains perceive and use to provide spatial cues.

[roymail]

Tyson, can you help me understand how these harmonics effect the music we hear?

Thanks for all the helpful posts so far.  Hoping for more.

[weatherman1]

I also have reduced hearing capacity from advanced maturity but have listened to several A/B demonstrations of excellent audiophile speakers and add-on super-tweeters.  These were done using CD's which I provided and were very familiar with from listening on ML Montis speakers.  My impression overall was that the music was fuller, richer, more detailed.  It was as if many of the fundamental frequencies were spatially enhanced and my ability to find the instrument within the sound-field was increased.  Orchestral recordings, to my ears, showed less of a sonic change but vocal jazz and big band were thrilling.  I have no science to back this up just my brains impressions.

[mresseguie]

JRace,

Thank you for posting the chart. It's very informative. 

I've been curious about something related to this thread. According to the chart, the majority of sound produced by most instruments in the 40Hz to 2500Hz range. (Okay, that 2.5kHz limit is arbitrary.)

If I want to create a 2-way speaker, will I reap the greatest reward by concentrating my greatest $$ investment into the best midwoofers possible and (in effect) skimping a bit on the tweeter? I'm sure I'm over-simplifying, but surely you understand what I'm asking. I understand the importance of good cabinets and crossovers - I'm only asking about drivers here.

Examples:

1. Seas Exotic woofer paired to a Vifa tweeter (or a Peerless tweeter).
2. Scan Speak Illuminator midwoofer paired to a Discovery tweeter.

I'm not suggesting the above tweeters are of low quality. They're just not top of the line quality.

Michael

[MarvinTheMartian]

There is a lot more than the fundamentals ...see the following chart ... it includes the harmonics.
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

Shawn

[audiventory]

Great chart!  One thing to note - these are the fundamentals of the notes played on these instruments - there are also harmonics produced above those fundamental frequencies that are important, too.

Yes. Harmonics.

Also possible check higher 10 kHz sine tones. Usually we listen 17-20 kHz.

Or test parametric equalizer (simplest VST plugin) with central frequency above 10 kHz.

Both cases we clear listen changes with and without double blind test and without doubts

If we will test via sweep sine 0 ... ultrasound range at good apparatus, we will not listen sound after 17-20 kHz.

For other apparatus we will listen ultrasound shifted to audible range. Even sometimes with decreasing tone.

Here need be very careful due avoid ear damaging due inaudible ultrasound press to ears anyway.

[simoon]

Tyson, can you help me understand how these harmonics effect the music we hear?

Thanks for all the helpful posts so far.  Hoping for more.

From what I understand, the fundamentals of musical instruments (with zero harmonics) all sound the same.

The fundamental of a flute will sound the same as a fundamental of a trumpet and the same as a violin (at the same frequencies). It is the harmonics that differentiate the instruments.

I may be completely wrong, so please correct me if so.

[Tyson]

There is a lot more than the fundamentals ...see the following chart ... it includes the harmonics.
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

Shawn

Even better!!  Here's the full pic for people not inclined to click on the link:

[Danny Richie]

All of the spacial cues that make up the layering of the sound stage and imaging are up there in the upper harmonics. Even allowing some of the harmonics above 20kHz can make a difference in some cases.

[Danny Richie]

If I want to create a 2-way speaker, will I reap the greatest reward by concentrating my greatest $$ investment into the best midwoofers possible and (in effect) skimping a bit on the tweeter? I'm sure I'm over-simplifying, but surely you understand what I'm asking. I understand the importance of good cabinets and crossovers - I'm only asking about drivers here.

Examples:

1. Seas Exotic woofer paired to a Vifa tweeter (or a Peerless tweeter).
2. Scan Speak Illuminator midwoofer paired to a Discovery tweeter.

I'm not suggesting the above tweeters are of low quality. They're just not top of the line quality.

Michael

Michael, the quality of the tweeter will make a profound difference.

And don't let the price of flagship models fool you into thinking they are better than anything else. There is often a lot of fluff in the mark up of some of those drivers.

[simoon]

From what I understand, the fundamentals of musical instruments (with zero harmonics) all sound the same.

The fundamental of a flute will sound the same as a fundamental of a trumpet and the same as a violin (at the same frequencies). It is the harmonics that differentiate the instruments.

I may be completely wrong, so please correct me if so.

looks like I was correct.

The fundamental of any instrument is a sine wave.

The harmonics and overtones of a particular instrument is what gives it a distinct timbre and differentiates its sound from another instrument played at the same frequency.

The top fundamental of a violin is at 1.3K. The 2nd harmonic is at 2.6K, the 3rd is at 5.2, the 4th is at 10.4. Three harmonics and we are already past 10K.

It takes 3 harmonics in order to identify an instrument, but it takes more for hi end audio.

[roymail]

OK, so for us males whose hearing is a bit limited by age (it's coming guys ), are we missing much of the music above 15Khz?  My brain still allows me to tell when the music is sublime or just so-so.

Thanks for the great posts.  Very insightful.

[mlundy57]

OK, so for us males whose hearing is a bit limited by age (it's coming guys ), are we missing much of the music above 15Khz?  My brain still allows me to tell when the music is sublime or just so-so.

Thanks for the great posts.  Very insightful.

I've wondered about this myself and about the utility of a multiband equalizer that a person could use to offset their hearing loss. For instance, if my hearing started dropping of at 13k so that it was -3dB@14k, -6dB@15k, -10dB@16K ... I could set the equalizer to be +3@14k, +6@15k,+10@16k ...

This would have to be strictly a one person system since it would probably sound weird to anybody else but would such a thing have any real value and even be practical?

Mike

[Danny Richie]

Guys, I have a buddy that can't hear pasted 16kHz. But he has great hearing. By that I mean he can discern a subtle change as quickly and easily as anyone.

Inserting an equalizer into the signal and you are going to negatively effect the signal across the board by passing it through all of those tone controls. That will have a much greater effect in quality reduction than from a slight hearing loss in the upper ranges.

If you want try adding a rear firing ambiance tweeter (on the back side of your speaker) and allow it to play a little louder than the rest of the speaker. That might help counter some upper frequency hearing loss. Don't forward face it though or you'll cause comb filtering cancellation with the on axis tweeter. You can also face it upward if you physically align the voice coil to that of the lower tweeter and put a small enough cap value on it to limit it to only the upper half of the top octave. 

[FullRangeMan]

[simoon]

Guys, I have a buddy that can't hear pasted 16kHz. But he has great hearing. By that I mean he can discern a subtle change as quickly and easily as anyone.

Years ago, while in college, I used to work part time in a high end shop in the LA area (San Fernando Valley to be more precise). We carried Maggies, Audio Resarch, PS Audio, SOTO, SUMO, Eagle.

We had a great customer that was a retired rifle trainer in the military. He would be on the rifle range all day standing next to trainees firing weapons.This was before ear protection was the norm. He had very little hearing above about 13K, yet he could consistently hear subtle changes to the audio system.

So, not hearing above 15K is really not a hindrance for listening to high end audio.

[mlundy57]

Guys, I have a buddy that can't hear pasted 16kHz. But he has great hearing. By that I mean he can discern a subtle change as quickly and easily as anyone.

Inserting an equalizer into the signal and you are going to negatively effect the signal across the board by passing it through all of those tone controls. That will have a much greater effect in quality reduction than from a slight hearing loss in the upper ranges.

If you want try adding a rear firing ambiance tweeter (on the back side of your speaker) and allow it to play a little louder than the rest of the speaker. That might help counter some upper frequency hearing loss. Don't forward face it though or you'll cause comb filtering cancellation with the on axis tweeter. You can also face it upward if you physically align the voice coil to that of the lower tweeter and put a small enough cap value on it to limit it to only the upper half of the top octave.

Kinda thought the equalizer might do more harm than good.

Mike