[John Casler]

I think I have become a "treated room" AudioSnob

While I didn't know it was happening, it got me just the same.

For over 30 years I have been slowly adding and experimenting with "acoustic" room treatment.

Hearing LEDE rooms, Recording Studios, and various Audiophiles listening rooms have shown me that this is a critical element to getting the best from a system.

I now have to confess, that whenever visiting friends, or going to Audiophile meets (like the LA/OC Audiophile Society meets) or various HI FI Salons, it is hard for me to get past the large amount of "room generated sound".

Now it is not that I don't enjoy listening to different systems, but I am always thinking about what the system would sound like if it had some additional treatment.

Now this goes even further, in that when I read a review about a product, I search the "system" information to see what acoustic treaments were used and room sizes.

So in fact, to me, the room itself, and its treatment, probably has the second or third (with speakers and source components) greatest affect on what I hear.

The bad part is, even once you are able to distinguish just what the room is doing, it is still hard to determine what the actual "system chain" is doing, since you know sonic elements are being masked, diluted, accentuated, attenuated, cancelled, and other such effects.

Again, that is not to say it isn't enjoyable.  Heck I could enjoy Bose 901's if in the right mood, but it sure keeps the wheels turning as to just how much better the system in question could be.

So there, I confess, I'm a "treated room" snob

   Ahhh, that feels better

[warnerwh]

You're not alone John.  It's obvious that it is waayyy more important than most people realize.  There's no doubt in my mind people spend hundreds or thousands on wire and electronics and don't have more than a clue what a good room can do to their systems.  Easily as major as a speaker change.  Even if someone had a 25k system poor room it sure can sound like poop compared to a 3k system in a properly done room.  The time and money people spend on things that make tiny differences should be spent on their rooms.  It's almost laughable the small attention acoustics get compared to amps and wires.

[zybar]

I totally agree with John as well.

I have spent a good amount of money and time when it comes to treating my room.  Only after treating the room do I feel like I am truly hearing what my gear is capabale of producing.

As funds allow, I will probably add a few more MiniTraps or possibly the new MonoTraps from Realtraps.com

George

[shokunin]

Ahhh the priveleges of having a dedicated room for audio listening.  I'm gonna have to find some more tactful looking room treatments.  John, do you know of any places in LA to get some 2" rigid fiberglass?

[Red Dragon Audio]

Ahhh the priveleges of having a dedicated room for audio listening.  I'm gonna have to find some more tactful looking room treatments.  John, do you know of any places in LA to get some 2" rigid fiberglass?

Hi Shokunin,

Just get your yellow pages out and start calling your local insulation warehouses.  They're bound to know a place that sells some Knauf brand or Owens-Corning brand rigid fiberglass boards.

[csero]

After fixing the obvious ferq anomalies in a room one problem still remains, namely the stereo triangle. With it you can never have the right room treatment, because if you want to hear what is on the record then you have to make the room dead. BUT! If you make the room dead the stereo triangle does not reproduce the necessary ambience info correctly to make the sound listenable, so you have to make the room lively, and you have to include your room's sound in the reproduction.
You always have to mix the two and there is no optimal solution, only "not that bad".

Frank

[Christof]

It would be great if you guys would elaborate just a little on what you have done to your rooms.  I know it's pretty much relative to the room specifics but I'd still like to hear what your doing.

Chris

[ooheadsoo]

There's an insulation warehouse very close to my place where you can get fiberglass.  I didn't call every place in LA, but I did call about 30 shops with insulation related names and these guys are it.  I got my panels there.

CWCI INSULATION OF L A
749 9TH AVE, HACIENDA HEIGHTS, CA 91745
Phone: (626) 369-4424

It's close to the 60 and 605.

[warnerwh]

It would be great if you guys would elaborate just a little on what you have done to your rooms.  I know it's pretty much relative to the room specifics but I'd still like to hear what your doing.

The most troublesome area is the lower frequencies.  I've got four bass traps, one in each corner.  Also the entire rear wall is covered with 3" wedge foam.  Both side walls and ceilieng are covered 5' out with 3' and 4" wedge foam.  The room is 12'w x 7'2"h x 17'2" d.  Carpet on extra heavy pad is over concrete.  This is stuff that not everybody may be able to get away with especially if they need to use their living room for their systems.  I'm no expert but I suspect my room may be considered heavily damped and ambience is excellent, the best I've heard.  The walls that are not damped just have pictures on them.  
In my last house I only had one bass trap and the wall behind the system covered with 3" foam.  I started with a little bit of foam at first, say 4x8 feet worth and found that was quite significant.  So of course I added more and more.  My point is that the more I did the better the sound became.  This improvement is much more than changing cables or amps ever thought of doing and was very cost effective considering the gains.  Just wish it didn't take me so long to discover it.  Acoustics is major major major!  Maybe Ethan can chime in here but I'm suspecting a very reflective room to be quite problematic compared to one with plenty of absorption.  A side benefit to the room treatment is that your room will become much "quieter".  The beauty of all this is that you can actually know that you hear an improvment for your cash, unlike wires.

[orthobiz]

I finally hung up my room treatments from Eighth Nerve. My room is just short of 10 feet wide, is 23 feet long. I have chosen a nearfield setup with my speakers are 14 feet apart, I sit in the center 7 feet away. Triangle traps in the ceiling, absorbing boxes in the room corners and absorbing strips above me and the speakers have all helped. But I still think the room is a bit too echogenic. Oh, and carpeted over concrete.

biz

[PLMONROE]

Warnerwh -- when you say your rear wall is covered with 3 inch foam are you saying that the foamed wall is the wall behind you? Then are your speakers at the live end of the room with you sitting at the dead end? If so, I guess I am mixed up on the LEDE concept. Your room is nearly the EXACT dimensions of mine which also has a carpet covered concrete floor

Paul

[Zoe]

I am not a snob, but I am moving to a different house after seventeen years in my present one.

For me the reason is that, having heard Casler's setup I am convinced I need a different listening room entirely. I want the nearfield with speakers on the long wall setup that I can't get in my current abode.

I have to sit 15 feet away with the speakers only about 7 feet apart from eachother. Sounds like I am listening in a tunnel.

So, not just room treatments but the whole configuration needs to be workable to begin with.

[shokunin]

There's an insulation warehouse very close to my place where you can get fiberglass.  I didn't call every place in LA, but I did call about 30 shops with insulation related names and these guys are it.  I got my panels there.

CWCI INSULATION OF L A
749 9TH AVE, HACIENDA HEIGHTS, CA 91745
Phone: (626) 369-4424

It's close to the 60 and 605.

ooheadsoo,

Thanks for the info!!!!  Saves me a TON of time calling around.  I'll give them a call.

[John Casler]

After fixing the obvious ferq anomalies in a room one problem still remains, namely the stereo triangle. With it you can never have the right room treatment, because if you want to hear what is on the record then you have to make the room dead. BUT! If you make the room dead the stereo triangle does not reproduce the necessary ambience info correctly to make the sound listenable, so you have to make the room lively, and you have to include your room's sound in the reproduction.
You always have to mix the two and there is no optimal solution, only "not that bad".

Frank

Hi Frank,

I wonder if you could explain why you say

If you make the room dead the stereo triangle does not reproduce the necessary ambience info correctly to make the sound listenable

In my room and experience, removing room reflections and room ambience allows me to hear the "recorded" ambience with much more clarity.

In fact, the deader (more dead) it is, the more I can hear when a recording engineer goes "overboard" with the "engineered" ambience.

I think that mixing the "engineered" ambience with room generated ambience creates "excessive" haze and loss of clairity.

I know some interpret this as "air" or "presence", but when it is reduced or eliminated, it adds an improved dimensional reality, especially to depth, that is startling.

The reason reducing the room adds to depth, is that the ambient cues from a live recording are based on the distances from the microphones to the reflective surfaces and back to the mike again in the specific venue.  (this is far less important in studio recordings and fake ambience)

Adding a whole "new" set of reflected sonic elements, of the main source sound (performers) and even the recorded reflections from the speaker to the room surfaces and back, seems to contribute such a phasic convolution that you lose the sound of the live recording.

While I don't fault those who "use" their room as part of the reproduction chain, (it does add a "forgiving" factor to bad recordings) I find that the more pure it is the better I like it

There I am, a snob again

[orthobiz]

I have the nearfield setup that Zoe talks about. Still working on it.

biz

[warnerwh]

Warnerwh -- when you say your rear wall is covered with 3 inch foam are you saying that the foamed wall is the wall behind you? Then are your speakers at the live end of the room with you sitting at the dead end? If so, I guess I am mixed up on the LEDE concept. Your room is nearly the EXACT dimensions of mine which also has a carpet covered concrete floor

Paul

My "front wall" behind my system is covered with acoustic foam, I was in error when I said rear wall.  The LEDE can be either way but I went this way as I know Brian Cheney of VMPS did his listening/demo room this way. There's a good arguement for the other way too though.  It's very obvious to me that this was a huge step forward and a necessity if at all possible.  Can't believe I went over 25 years not knowing any better.

Also, re read everything John said, it's spot on with my own experience.

[Ethan Winer]

John,

> the deader (more dead) it is, the more I can hear when a recording engineer goes "overboard" with the "engineered" ambience. <

Yes, I agree completely. When a room is treated properly there are no first reflections at the listening position, and the room is not completely dead sounding. It's not necessary to treat the entire front wall or large areas of the side walls. Summarized in one sentence:

All rooms need bass trapping in the corners, mid/high frequency absorption at the first reflection points including the ceiling and floor, and patches of absorption elsewhere as needed to avoid flutter echoes and tame any remaining excess ambience.

--Ethan

[PhilNYC]

Great thread!  But I would say that you are only a Room Treatment "Snob" if you feel that a room can only be treated properly with expensive brand-name room treatments...  

[John Casler]

Great thread!  But I would say that you are only a Room Treatment "Snob" if you feel that a room can only be treated properly with expensive brand-name room treatments...  

If I ever get the new pics of my room w/the 4 LARGER Subs posted you'll see my treatments are not of the "expensive" kind, but do feel "picky" when I listen in a different room, and the room makes close to as much sound as the speakers.

[JoshK]

wait till you see a picture of my room treatments....