[DVV]

Doing a search on the PowerVar brings up a lot of positive comments, just wondering as to why you think they are a waste?

When Francisco says its a waste of time, I'd believe him ... but then, I do know him a bit better than most here.

That notwithstanding, the problem with a lot of positive feedback is not in the feedback, but in who it comes from. Let's face it, most people have very little experience with power line filters, and then many have unwittingly used the same general type of filter. Therefore, their comparison basis is limited. Not many can dedicate their time and efforts to researching that.

As a general comment, filters based on transformers, no matter which type and how they are made, must by default insert the transformer core signature to the outgoing power. How can this be any different from classic audio? Laws of physics apply just the same.

Transformers, ALL transformers, tend to be sluggish, their response is always damped by the properties of the materials they are made from. In part, this can be overcome by using oversize transformers, but only in part, mind.

Sintered materials, i.e. those made of compressed powder, also have their own properties, but these are by and large an order of magnitude above classic transformers. In other words, you start out with a much better platform and then build on that. They are more compact and will take on MUCH more power (assuming they are well dimensioned) than any equivalent classic transformer.  They are smaller and easier to work with in terms of required space, but to the best of my knowledge, cannot be turned into filters any other way but by hand. This makes them more expensive overall, even if they are more efficient overall.

Industry, any industry, will always prefer the easier to implement solution. Anything made in series by machines will always be preferred to than something you have to hire qualified people for. Hence the proliferation of power transformers in line filters - ultimately, they are the cheapest and easisest to implement.

Like it or not, but by and large, we end with economics as the bottom line.

Cheers,
DVV

[mca]

I'm not doubting his advice, I just would like more info than "don't waste your time on this"

[brj]

Sintered materials, i.e. those made of compressed powder, also have their own properties, but these are by and large an order of magnitude above classic transformers.

Ok, so who makes power line filters based on this technology?

[orthobiz]

The Ultimate Outlet is a Recommended Component in Stereophile current issue. Maybe there's sound coloration, maybe not, but the UO doesn't regenerate power and protects from surges, etc. Maybe not a "no-brainer," but definitely not necessarily bad either (enough double negatives for everyone?). Plus, it's not the most expensive component out there...

Bet you'd like it.

biz

[orthobiz]

Oh yeah, and audioasylum has a PS Audio forum; you can take the info gleaned from AudioCircle, formulate your questions and bounce them off Paul in a public "outlet" (no pun intended).

biz

[Psychicanimal]

I'm not doubting his advice, I just would like more info than "don't waste your time on this"

It's much better to use "C-core" transformers.  The Xentek Extreme transformers have a (-146 dB ) noise reduction floor.  That's really good.  Couple one of those and the Auricaps parallel filters VenHaus sells, along with a DIY power box with cryo'ed outlets (and gold plated for digital) and you'll be much better off.

[DVV]

Sintered materials, i.e. those made of compressed powder, also have their own properties, but these are by and large an order of magnitude above classic transformers.

Ok, so who makes power line filters based on this technology?

My DeZorels are based on that technology, or their take of it. High quality, professional Siemens filters are based on it, and there are sure to be others, even if I don't know who. It's not a patented technology or anything, it's been around for like 60 years.

Somebody else was mentioned here a few messages ago.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

The Ultimate Outlet is a Recommended Component in Stereophile current issue. Maybe there's sound coloration, maybe not, but the UO doesn't regenerate power and protects from surges, etc. Maybe not a "no-brainer," but definitely not necessarily bad either (enough double negatives for everyone?). Plus, it's not the most expensive component out there...

Bet you'd like it.

biz

Just a comment here. Paul McGowan's idea of regenerating power is a very good one, in my view. The only problem is the cost, because if it's to work really well, it will have to cost a whopper. For a start, he'd have to use a high quality CPU and it would probably be a good idea to interpolate, though this would depend on his platform.

Then, his power amp boosting it all would have to be a realy powerful thing, which will by defult cost a lot of money.

But if you can stomach a hefty bill, well into 5 figures, what you'd end up with is a really great source of truly clean power.

From what I saw of his products in this department say a year and a half ago reminded me of Bob Carver's Phase Linear days. PL offered tremendously powerful amps for the money, and showed pictures of arrays of power devices. What they DIDN'T show was that Bob ran like a 250W amp from a pair of 6,800uF caps.

So, when that amp saw not 8 but 7 ohms, it started to whither, and by 5 ohms, it was really depressed.

That's where I think Paul tripped. He had the idea, he worked it out, but his power section was below par. Of course he knew how to get it up to top notch, but then his products would not cost $3.5K, but $13.5K.

It's a sad fact people these days look incomparably more at how something looks than what is under the bonnet. Form takes total precedence over substance.

Cheers,
DVV

[orthobiz]

DVV,

I'm not an expert, just a consumer (and a good one at that). So is the UO a good idea or a bad idea?

biz

[Psychicanimal]

DVV,

I'm not an expert, just a consumer (and a good one at that). So is the UO a good idea or a bad idea?

biz

I'll answer the question with the same exact question Dejan would ask:

What are the UO's specifications?

The Xentek has (-146 dB), the newer ones (-160 dB), ten times as quiet!!!

[Marbles]

For Source equipment the PS Audio Power Plants are very good.

For low powered amps they are good.

For high current amps they suck.

[DVV]

DVV,

I'm not an expert, just a consumer (and a good one at that). So is the UO a good idea or a bad idea?

biz

Francisco said it - what are its specs?

I always ask this not because I think the specs can tell me how it sounds, but because I want to see how serious they are. Any serious manufacturer will always publish at least some specs; if none are available, and letters from extatic customers don't count,  I'd bypass those people, whoever they are.

Specifically, I can't say if it's a good idea or not because I haven't used that product, I have zero experience with it. Consequently, I cannot comment.

But try without buy is a good idea, you gain experience that way.

Cheers,
DVV

[Jay S]

Relative advantages aside, I've found both transformer based (balanced power) and sinstered-type power conditioners to have a very noticeable positive impact on my system.  I would have initially preferred to get a sinstered-type pc due to its near-unlimited power handling (and spectacular specs) except that one that I was demo-ing failed on me (I was told a capacitor went bad).  That tipped the balance towards a Blue Circle Music Ring for me.  Since my amp is digital and uses relatively little power, I can run my entire system off the Music Ring, which is rated to 1200 watts.

[DVV]

...

I'll answer the question with the same exact question Dejan would ask:

What are the UO's specifications?

The Xentek has (-146 dB), the newer ones (-160 dB), ten times as quiet!!!

Francisco, let's not forget there are other issues here as well. Does it work on both differential and common mode noise? What are its phase issues like (any filter WILL introduce phase shift, the only question is how much)? What is its power handiling, and its filtering curve at different power levels?

I have seen prescious little specs along these lines from manufacturers, and answers to above questions can tell you quite a bit.

As a general example only, take balanced transformers. They will have good to very good filtering in the 20...20,000 Hz range, but will start to drop sharply above 20 kHz. To the best of my knowledge, there are serious noise issues in the 10-80 kHz range, so their dropping off at high frequencies bodes ill for intermodulation cause by higher order forms of noise. I'm not saying they are bad, but they have their own set of compromises which I am not in favor of.

Ideally, a line filter should continue to filter to above 1 MHz, preferably up to 10 MHz (MOST hard to achieve!). Obviously, none can be good at both low and high frequencies, they have to give somewhere. In my view, pi cell filters, such as used by DeZorel, Siemens and others, despite being expensive by default, offer the best set of compromises all around. They start filtering at about 2 kHz and keep going up to about 350 kHz, where the filter has a slight "comeback" effect (a drop in filtering), above which they continue to filter well into the MHz range.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

For Source equipment the PS Audio Power Plants are very good.

For low powered amps they are good.

For high current amps they suck.

In other words, for lower power levels, it's good, for higher power levels, it sucks.

Testimony of an insufficiently powerful output stage; it can't cope with high power demands.

As I said, there is no doubt in my mind that Paul McGowan could have made a model which would not suffer from this shortcoming, but it would have cost obviously more than he was willing to stick his neck out for.

Still, a great idea.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Relative advantages aside, I've found both transformer based (balanced power) and sinstered-type power conditioners to have a very noticeable positive impact on my system.

Of course, Josh. Line hash is a far bigger problem than most people are even aware of. Any filter you insert which half does its job will make a difference, proof enough that line hash is a major problem.

Hence DVV's Law 1: good sound starts from the wall outlet.

I would have initially preferred to get a sinstered-type pc due to its near-unlimited power handling (and spectacular specs) except that one that I was demo-ing failed on me (I was told a capacitor went bad). ...

Not to nitpick, but Josh, NOTHING is even close to "near-unlimited". Sintered materials will go into saturation just as classic transformers will. The differences are that sintered materials will take more abuse on a unit per unit basis than classic transformers before they start to go nuts, and then when they do, they will do so somewhat (depending on type and material quality) more gently than classic transformers, such as E and C cores.

As a very general example, a say 300 VA transformer will begin to saturate at say 330-400 VA, depending on core quality and wiring. By 400 VA, it will be distorting very badly, and by say 440 VA, it will give up the ghost. Same power rating sintered material will start to saturate at say 400 VA, by 600 VA it will be distorting but still delivering, and by 1,000 VA it will start to go funny on you.

This is the very simplified explanation why sintered material filters hardly ever sound constrained or "constipated". Their dynamic range to absolute saturation limits is at least 2-3 times that of classic transformers, despite the fact that they too will be distorting.

Much like in an amplifier, even the worst of distortion is far preferable to even the mildest of clipping. God forbid hard and abrupt clipping.

That tipped the balance towards a Blue Circle Music Ring for me.  Since my amp is digital and uses relatively little power, I can run my entire system off the Music Ring, which is rated to 1200 watts.

I know everybody's a general after the battle, but I think you gave up a little too easily.

Last but not least, there's the problem of isolation. A single filter, of any type, will stop hash from getting in, but will do nothing about crosstalk AFTER the filter, among the system components.

That's why I prefer a distributed filter function, meaning having several parallel sections of lower rating. This effectively isolates components, killing crosstalk as well as line hash. Since each filter feeds just one component, it would be quite sufficient to have two high power outputs for power amps, but the remaining say four could just as well be rated at say 200 VA each, and even that's an overkill.

Thought food.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

That's why I prefer a distributed filter function, meaning having several parallel sections of lower rating. This effectively isolates components, killing crosstalk as well as line hash. Since each filter feeds just one component, it would be quite sufficient to have two high power outputs for power amps, but the remaining say four could just as well be rated at say 200 VA each, and even that's an overkill.

Dejan,

Where did you find the time to write all these posts?

My approach to filtration is a combination of everything you said--and then some.  That's why it works so well.  I use a 220V/110V stepdown 3KW ONEAC with "virtual ground" which is great for high frequency noise & isolating the ground, followed by the Clear Image T4 which has custom made toroids for dealing with noise in the audio band (plus custom made EMI modules).  The T4 uses balanced filtration (hot and neutral) for each individual line component and the entire chassis is made of copper.  I also use Bybees and Highwire Wirewraps.  Proper filtration must be addressed in this way before one can start evaluating audio components--period.  Otherwise it's a 'chasing your own tail' ordeal.  Giving up early will lead to bad component choices, wasted money and frustration.

[DVV]

Dejan,

Where did you find the time to write all these posts?

I type real fast. So would you, after publishing over 300 texts in magazines, one book, three seasons of TV script, two seasons of radio, etc, etc. My problem is when I have to sign something - my handwriting is all but gone. I forgot.

My approach to filtration is a combination of everything you said--and then some.  That's why it works so well.  I use a 220V/110V stepdown 3KW ONEAC with "virtual ground" which is great for high frequency noise & isolating the ground, followed by the Clear Image T4 which has custom made toroids for dealing with noise in the audio band (plus custom made EMI modules).  The T4 uses balanced filtration (hot and neutral) for each individ ...

Throw in a panzer division, and I'll buy it. Where do you insert Heinz Tartar Sauce?

Francisco, compadre, please read your own text - it almost seems like your audio comes as an afterthought to killing any and all noise. Also, and I could be worng here, it doesn't sound ellegant and simple at all, quite to the contrary.

Say, how about a pic or two? Just to give us an idea how all that looks put together.

Cheers,
DVV

[OBF]

Fransisco,

Any idea how the old Elgar conditioners would compare spec-wise with the other gear being discussed here?  The fan noise was so unbearable I disabled mine, so now it overheats easily, but still works quite well with my front projector.

[Jay S]

Hi Dejan, I was quite frustrated with my search for a power conditioner that would work well in my place without failing (e.g. blown capacitor, power cord failure, etc) or tripping the RCD in my circuit box.  Since Gilbert @ Blue Circle was quite familiar with UK/HK wiring standards, I felt most comfortable buying his balanced power supply.  From memory, both the DeZorel and Blue Circle improved the sound of my system in similar ways... if I had a current hungry amp (which I don't) I would have probably persisted longer.  My friend Guan has an AR Senior so I know they are very good power conditioners.  

Francisco, I totally agree with you the good power is a great foundation for an audio system.  And, people do need to give it more attention.  What is noteworthy of your approach is that you've been able to use cost-effective solutions like the OneAC transformers.  

That said, Dejan's point underscores the importance of a reference system.  Unless you have very good components (with no obvious weaknesses) which synergize well (the whole is greater than the sum of the parts) then making changes is still quite fraught with risk in spite of having clean power.  My system took a big step back when I switched to using an old Toshiba dvd player as a transport (I used to use a Cary 303 cdp) but if I didn't realize my dvd player were the weak link I may make other component changes (a pre, an amp, cables, etc) to "cover up" the sins of the transport.  The Tosh gets fed bybee-filtered balanced power through a very nice power cord. I've heavily damped the transport mechanism and clock crystal. My digital cable has a bybee in it as well. My dac is a non-oversampling Scott Nixon Tube Dac which, between being non-OS and have a tube output, should make the effects of jitter less noticeable.  In spite of all that, I need a better transport.