[ajzepp]

I would have agreed with the "HT subs aren't good for music" thing ten years ago, but not anymore. Nowadays with DSP amps and other evolution, there are lots of amazign subs out there.

I agree that the SVS PB13 Ultra is a solid sub, and I enjoyed my time with it. I've soured on SVS lately, however, as they are focused more on mass market appeal and have shifted a large segment of their business to China. None of the original owners/founders are with the company anymore.

I recently started a thread in the Home Theater circle about my new subwoofer, and how I only found out recently that Tom "SubHuman" Vodhanel has been back in the game for a couple years. I won't take up anymore time here to blabber about it, but please check my other thread if you'd like to hear more.

[Stercom]

Rythmik Audio LV12R directservo which uses a Hypex amp and costs $569. There may be "better" subs out there, but in your price range this is the way to go.

Here is a link:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-rythmik-audio-lv12r-directservo-rear-ported-servo-subwoofer-hypex-ucd-amp-2015-05-14-home-theater-78732-austin-tx

[charmerci]

You can also check out Reaction Audio subs. (They give Seaton a good run for their money with great HT speaker deals.) The speakers are all made to order.

Their subs can make a small house shake.

http://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/

[Rclark]

Rythmik Audio LV12R directservo which uses a Hypex amp and costs $569. There may be "better" subs out there, but in your price range this is the way to go.

Here is a link:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-rythmik-audio-lv12r-directservo-rear-ported-servo-subwoofer-hypex-ucd-amp-2015-05-14-home-theater-78732-austin-tx

So tempted to bite on that.

If I would do an OB sub, would a pair of 12's per side suffice or do you really need 3? 4 total drivers versus 6?

[Tyson]

Damn. Ok what do I want for OB, the 12's? 8's are just a quirky choice right?

12's are what you want.  I like them because they are the perfect height to act as stands for a pair of bookshelf speakers.  Also, placement rules for sealed subs do not apply to OB subs - you should definitely not put them in a corner.  I find placing them close to the main speakers works best. 

Some people say bass below 100 or 80 hz is omni-directional because the wavelengths are longer than the space around your head from ear to ear.  This is true from a sound waves perspective.  But what that does not account for is that we also feel sound pressure on our skin.  So when a sub is sitting behind or beside us, we feel it's waves originating behind us in the form of pressure, which is incongruous to our brains when the main signal is coming from in front of us.  So it takes away from the illusion. 

Having the subs physically located close to the main speakers does not cause this problem and with OB you can actually do it without penalty, since they sound best away from wall/barriers anyway.  With a sealed sub you put them in the corner because it excites the most room modes, but an OB sub works by minimizing interaction with room modes, so putting it in the corner is the last thing you want to do. 

The problem with most OB bass is that its lacking in punch, power, or any real depth.  The Rhythmik servo system addresses all of that quite well.  So you can have your cake and eat it, too.  Sometimes audio is about tradeoffs (most of the time, actually).  But sometimes better is just better.  This is one of those times.

[Rclark]

Alright, well, couple more weeks and I have an audio budget again, but much bigger than before. If you think OB will give me both kickdrums and subbass, and not drop off severely if I get up to go to my bedroom or the kitchen, Im in. Maggies+OB servo sounds like a winner.

I love how this thread totally veered left.

[Rclark]

I would have agreed with the "HT subs aren't good for music" thing ten years ago, but not anymore. Nowadays with DSP amps and other evolution, there are lots of amazign subs out there.

I agree that the SVS PB13 Ultra is a solid sub, and I enjoyed my time with it. I've soured on SVS lately, however, as they are focused more on mass market appeal and have shifted a large segment of their business to China. None of the original owners/founders are with the company anymore.

I recently started a thread in the Home Theater circle about my new subwoofer, and how I only found out recently that Tom "SubHuman" Vodhanel has been back in the game for a couple years. I won't take up anymore time here to blabber about it, but please check my other thread if you'd like to hear more.

Good to know if I ever buy a house and want to add a couple of theater monsters for fun.

[Rclark]

Hmm. Looks like 4 subs and two amps is about 1300. So maybe 1500 total for two built OB subs in unfinished MDF.


I can get them away from the walls, my maggies are 4 feet out, but I also sit near field. Do OB servo subs work near field? 

[Tyson]

Yes, the absolutely work near field.  Just make sure they are facing toward you and not sideways.  Plus with maggies, OB is really the only way to go.  Closed box subs are really, really poor matches with OB main speakers.  I think if Martin Logan or other stat companies started using OB servo subs in their designs, the whole speaker would get a big jump in sound quality.  Maggies, too.

[JLM]

As long as we've wandered off topic, I'd like to ask if anyone can explain the difference(s) between home subwoofers and studio subwoofers. 

As a fairly typical example, the Eve Audio TS112:  $1500; F3 = 24 Hz; 12 inch woofer + passive radiator; 112 dB max output; XLR left/right/LFE in and out (6 total); 15"x22"x20"; 400 watt amp; remote control.  Just seems much more expensive, much wimpier specifications (it's their biggest sub), but well equipped. 

I suppose their built better, specifications more conservative, and better sonic performance than found in home subs.  TIA

[Rclark]

Yes, the absolutely work near field.  Just make sure they are facing toward you and not sideways.  Plus with maggies, OB is really the only way to go.  Closed box subs are really, really poor matches with OB main speakers.  I think if Martin Logan or other stat companies started using OB servo subs in their designs, the whole speaker would get a big jump in sound quality.  Maggies, too.

Seems a rare combo. I might end up the only guy on the whole forum with maggies and OB servo subs. The planar circle is staunchly sealed box, preferably REL. I suppose that's all fairly ironic.

[Tyson]

Seems a rare combo. I might end up the only guy on the whole forum with maggies and OB servo subs. The planar circle is staunchly sealed box, preferably REL.

Don't most people with planars bitch and bitch about how hard it is to integrate subs with their speakers?  And then get small "musical" subs and turn them way down and only do the very lowest bass because of how "slow" bass is, that it can't keep up with the "speed" of their main speakers?  Well its because they are using the wrong freaking technology.  OF COURSE a sealed sub is gonna sound like crap when trying to integrate with a main speaker that has a totally different radiation pattern.  If boxes are bad for main speakers, why on earth would they be good for bass speakers?  Just poor thinking on their part.

[PMAT]

This is exactly why I love the sound of my Carver Amazing Silvers. 3 12 inch OB woofers and a 48 " ribbon per side. They are shaped like Apogees. They do many things really right.

[Rclark]

Don't most people with planars bitch and bitch about how hard it is to integrate subs with their speakers?  And then get small "musical" subs and turn them way down and only do the very lowest bass because of how "slow" bass is, that it can't keep up with the "speed" of their main speakers?  Well its because they are using the wrong freaking technology.  OF COURSE a sealed sub is gonna sound like crap when trying to integrate with a main speaker that has a totally different radiation pattern.  If boxes are bad for main speakers, why on earth would they be good for bass speakers?  Just poor thinking on their part.

Now I have to do it.

[mresseguie]

Rclark,

I might as well tell you what I experienced when I visited Captainhemo on May 4th. He's got two GR Research double 12" H frame OB subs. [It was my first time hearing them btw.] We listened to all kinds of music for six straight hours and had a blast. Never once did the music sound boomy or overbearing.

I was sold on OB subs that night. I'm still sold, but OB subs do need to be out in the room to sound their best, and my two audio rooms (HT and 2-channel) don't accept subs that want to breathe (so to speak). Either my room is small or there is super WAF. I'll someday buy a new house and I will try damned hard to make sure at least one room will be a dedicated audio room. Then, I will get the OB subs. Until then, I will use my Rythmik F12G, which I'm pretty content with btw.

Best of luck to you, sir. Have fun!

Michael

[gregfisk]

Seems a rare combo. I might end up the only guy on the whole forum with maggies and OB servo subs. The planar circle is staunchly sealed box, preferably REL. I suppose that's all fairly ironic.

I don't think it's rare at all, Danny's been talking about OB bases for Maggies for a long time now. And the reason is that the speed of an OB is the only type of sub that can keep up. I can't imagine going back to sealed or ported subs, or box speakers for that matter. My super V's have the best bass I have ever heard.

[Rclark]

Rclark,

I might as well tell you what I experienced when I visited Captainhemo on May 4th. He's got two GR Research double 12" H frame OB subs. [It was my first time hearing them btw.] We listened to all kinds of music for six straight hours and had a blast. Never once did the music sound boomy or overbearing.

I was sold on OB subs that night. I'm still sold, but OB subs do need to be out in the room to sound their best, and my two audio rooms (HT and 2-channel) don't accept subs that want to breathe (so to speak). Either my room is small or there is super WAF. I'll someday buy a new house and I will try damned hard to make sure at least one room will be a dedicated audio room. Then, I will get the OB subs. Until then, I will use my Rythmik F12G, which I'm pretty content with btw.

Best of luck to you, sir. Have fun!

Michael

Thanks for that! So if I'm reading between the lines correctly there, you've tried this type in your house and it didn't work out in the small room?

[mresseguie]

Nope. I have not tried them in my house.

My home office, which is where my 2-channel resides, is an oddly shaped room filled with a huge desk, built-in book cases, cabinets, and an inward opening half-French door all conspiring to make it an acoustically challenging room.

I just eye-balled the room and decided it might work if the subs were just 18" or 24" from the wall, but the spaces might be awkward. The right-hand sub would be partially blocked by my desk. If I started over, tore out all the built-ins, and traded my desk in for a more normal sized desk, it would work much better, but that's not going to happen.

WAF reigns more or less supreme in the HT room because that is the family room, which in our house is very prominent in our open floor plan. In the end my wife is far more important to me than well placed subs.

[Tyson]

Nope. I have not tried them in my house.

My home office, which is where my 2-channel resides, is an oddly shaped room filled with a huge desk, built-in book cases, cabinets, and an inward opening half-French door all conspiring to make it an acoustically challenging room.

I just eye-balled the room and decided it might work if the subs were just 18" or 24" from the wall, but the spaces might be awkward. The right-hand sub would be partially blocked by my desk. If I started over, tore out all the built-ins, and traded my desk in for a more normal sized desk, it would work much better, but that's not going to happen.

WAF reigns more or less supreme in the HT room because that is the family room, which in our house is very prominent in our open floor plan. In the end my wife is far more important to me than well placed subs.

I had an odd shaped room for years - an open L shaped condo living/dining area.  Trust me, OB is the only thing that will work well.  I tried sealed boxes for years and used some pretty sophisticated EQ to try to address it and it never, ever worked well.  Going OB was the only thing that even remotely tamed that room.  And smaller rooms need OB even more than large rooms because sealed subs will overwhelm a small room in a heartbeat.  Sealed (omnidirectional) subs are a terrible solution for most rooms, unless you have the space to do a swarm using at least 4 subs and at least 1 or 2 acoustic bass traps tuned to your rooms resonant frequencies.

[Rclark]

Anyone ever tried this with the Rythmik 15's? Seems like the paper cone 12's would be suited to maximizing a sealed box, but once you're free air.. wouldnt more displacement be better?  12's or 8's just seem like an odd choice in this regard.