How do I create the response I hear when I put my hands behind my head....

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tomlinmgt

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...like one does when placed under arrest or, in my case, when kind of leaning back and resting your head in your hands (fingers interlocked) with elbows outboard of your ears.  What I hear is a noticeable airiness added to the highs and a general improvement to HF articulation.  As you can see in the attached image, the acoustic response from behind me is purely absorptive. The panel directly behind me is 3" thick SafeNSound and flanking that panel to either side (and hidden behind the tall R19 "gobos") are 6" thick panels with all panels mounted about 8" off the wall.   I was thinking of putting some binary sequence type wood slats on the face of the absorption panel directly behind me in an attempt to get some scattered energy returned to the listening position as I think my elbows are just directing HF energy toward my ears.  Does it sound like I'm barking up the right tree?

thanks,
Michael


 

paul79

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I hear you. I brought some Totaldac gear to this room recently for him to audition, and he had accomplished this very thing with room acoustics, without the hands :):

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1250107418

I believe it had allot to do with the wood slat type reflectors placed on the walls at the sides of the speakers.

John Casler

Sounds like a case of "oversized PINNA Envy"   :roll:



The phenomenon of which you lust, is due to creating a larger area that collects "MORE" sound and moves it to the ear canals.


Tyson

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Just get a chair with a higher leather headrest. 

tomlinmgt

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Sounds like a case of "oversized PINNA Envy"   

Don't they have pills now that'll help a guy out with that situation?  :?


srb


tomlinmgt

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Just get a chair with a higher leather headrest.

The Ikea Poang chair I have actually came with a leather headrest.  The chair I was using before I got the Poang had nothing behind the head at all and the first time I heard music while sitting in the Poang I was not happy with its sonic contribution.  I immediately removed the padded leather headrest and "ahhhh....much better".  The highest point on the wood frame of the Poang is about even with the base of my skull, so there is nothing directly behind my ears with the headrest removed.

tomlinmgt

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I understand the logic behind the "chair with headrest" suggestion you guys are making, but that's not the solution for me.  I don't much care for the effect of having the solid, reflective surface right behind my head/ears.  My friend has one of Ekornes Stressless chairs and although the thing is insanely comfortable I think it sucks for critical listening. 

The thing that's going on when I'm doing the hands behind the head thing is my arms create reflective surfaces to either side of my head that scatter sonic energy rather than create a solid boundary layer directly behind my head/ears which would return all sonic content that passes by my head.  Big difference, I think.

Anyway, hearing the results of this has made me second guess having total absorption behind me. 

JLM

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Seems like:

1.) You're sitting too close to the back wall;
2.) From what's shown it appears that you have too much absorption in the room.

Recommendations (in order):

1.) Move the listening chair away from back wall (minimum 6 feet recommended);
2.) Try pulling out pieces of absorption one at a time;
3.) Send us more information about your room;
4.) Change speakers;
5.) Look into cosmetic ear surgery to create larger, more cupped ears.

mav52

What speakers are you using ( bookshelfs on stands or floor standers) and how high is the tweeter as compared to your seating position ( where your head is it) maybe the tweeter is higher than your head position and your arms folded behind your head is just capturing the sound.   

or maybe repositioning your speakers

ACHiPo

That has Navin Johnson written all over it.
:lol: :thumb:

tomlinmgt

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The listening space is actually my garage and is 20x20x8 with a little utility area off to the right hand side at the back of the room.  I still use the garage for some storage and have a work bench back in the utility area but for the most part it has become a dedicated listening space.  It started off as the typical, highly reflective cement floor and sheet rock wall garage but as I became more serious with my audio hobby and started experimenting with acoustic treatments getting a favorable acoustic response in the room  became a bit of an obsession.  So much so that I've become a bit of a zealot when it comes to room acoustics and have been experimenting with various absorption and diffusion devices over the course of the last few years. 

The basic layout has 20' as the length but at the front half of the room I've created a false wall on the left side that covers up some storage shelves (which can be accessed from the garage door) which makes the front half of the listening space 16' wide.  You can see the false wall in the picture below (which is an older picture so some things have changed) which is basically two 4x7 panels butted up against one another and stood up on end and screwed to the plastic shelves.  Each panel uses 3/16" plywood as the front and rear face with 3" of SafeNSound sandwiched in between.   

Front left...



As far as treatments....to the right and left the first reflection locations are treated with two 2'x4' mobile absorption panels made from 2" OC703.  At the ceiling's first reflection location is a pair of 2'x4' 2" OC703 panels.  The rear wall has the three panels and "gobos"  mentioned in the OP.  The front wall has a seven module stepped fractal diffuser array (Tim Perry's "leanfuser") with 6" of SafeNSound behind them, some poly diffusers beneath the diffuser array and 4" of OC703 behind them.  Up in the wall to ceiling corner I have a pair of 2'x2' 4" thick OC703 traps and in the front corners are superchunk stype traps made from OC703.  The front right corner has a water heater and it's been covered with heavy fabric and allowed to act as a sort of poly diffuser.  In the corner on the left side I stacked two bass drum hard cases and created another poly type diffuser there to mimic the response off the hot water heater.  On either side of me at the back of the room I've located a pair of DIY mobile QRD diffuser arrays. 

Front right...



Rear right...



Rear left...



Front of room...





And as you can see I use a variety of speakers from horns to dipoles to line sources (currently listening to the Acoustats) and regardless of type I still get the same effect when I put my hands behind my head...which leads me to believe the response I'm getting from behind might have a lot to do with it.  And yes, I've measured the room (I use an OmniMic) but need to get some new measurements as I haven't done that since I put all the diffusion in. 

- Michael





John Casler

While my initial answer was "in jest" there are a couple things that might be valuable toward your goal of a more complete and detailed sound, that "cupping" offers.

Keep in mind the sonic you hear from cupping is due to two mechanisms.  First you are collecting and directing more DIRECT SOUND into your ears and SECOND, you are blocking or reducing reflected sound from the sides and rear.

1) The first thing you need to consider, is that "reflected" sound (that which is not DIRECTLY from the speaker to your ears) will muddy and distort everything you hear.  So absorption is ALWAYS a good thing toward the goal of clearer, precise and accurate sound.  ANY sound you hear that is reflected will ALWAYS be a distortion of the recorded signal and thus not be accurate.  So reducing any and all reflections will move you toward your goal of purity.

2) You likely will not be able to stop all reflected sound so moving more nearfield will also help you.  When you move nearfield your ears hear the signal before it disperses as much.  That is, the signal is louder.  As sound moves away from the speaker driver, it "expands" (disperses) and the energy is reduced the further away you are from the source.  As well this dispersed sound eventually becomes reflected sound off of room surfaces, and completely muddies and distorts what your ears collect.

What you are hearing, (or wanting to hear) is similar to the purity of sound you hear with headphones.  Why are phones so detailed?  NO REFLECTED ROOM SOUND, and undistorted, pure signal directly to the ears.  But the problem with phones is spatial cues.  NO Soundstage.

Many people misunderstand (including sound engineers) what occurs and the goals in a 2 channel system, compared to a live venue.  The goals are NOT the same, and using the same physics will not work to your advantage.

I might add that while putting larger reflective surfaces immediately behind your head will give you a bit of what you want, they are not as good a solution as above.  The Pinna is a collective mechanism, and is of a material (skin and cartilage) that doesn't reflect much.  It directs sound to the ear canal.

3) If you have a set of headphones, try placing them "BEHIND" the Pinna, so that it causes the Pinna to "stick out" more.  This simple change can give you (along with the nearfield suggestion above) much of the sonic you are after at NO COST.

FullRangeMan

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Wow JBL TI250 great vintage speakers.

*Scotty*

tomlinmgt, all kidding aside you may want a combination of diffusion and absorption behind you for a more spacious sound. This would give you ears a second chance to hear the higher frequencies that with you current setup are sucked into a black hole once they get past your ears.
 There are a lot of good room treatment ideas at this website:
http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/
Scotty

Tyson

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My advice is to use absorption in the corners of a room, and at the first reflection point.  Then use diffusion as much as possible in the rest of the room.

tomlinmgt

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tomlinmgt, all kidding aside you may want a combination of diffusion and absorption behind you for a more spacious sound. This would give you ears a second chance to hear the higher frequencies that with you current setup are sucked into a black hole once they get past your ears.
 There are a lot of good room treatment ideas at this website:
http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/
Scotty

I tend to agree.  My only concern is that any energy that gets returned  to the listening position via the rear wall will arrive in the form of an early reflection since it's as close as it is. 

And thanks for the link.  That's Tim Perry's site...where I got the design for the diffuser I have on my front wall. 

stereocilia