[buckeyefanandy]

I have a Rock Turntable that has been sitting unused for a while.  I wanted to start a analogue front end a few years back, but got caught up in a house rehab that took 18 months and left me with a third floor man cave that is great, but never got around to setting it up till after my father passed.  Have since rehabbed two more houses and need something to slow the pace down and my wife tells me I need to relax more.

The rock was serviced and ready to go, but i still lack a tonearm and cartridge and there are not many options in the area.  One local dealers has the only tonearm for sale, apparently within 150 miles it is a Micro Seiki cf-1 as best I can tell.  I have toyed with idea of setting up a simple older table (Empire, AR) or finding a used Technics and get some more experience before investing in the rock or have thought about just jumping in.  My budget is tight, as I am rehabbing another house and have a couple unknowns that could drain the reserves very quickly.

I have $500 for an arm plus I am selling a vintage NOS ortofon s 15-t cart and some other extra gear to add some extra cash so I may be looking in the $500 to $750 range.

[neobop]

Hi,
No simple answer for this one.  What version of the Rock do you have?  Is the armboard already cut? 

There's also a question about compatibility with the damping trough.  A lot hinges on your answer to those questions.  $500 - $700 might do it with a used arm or maybe an Audiomods, but you have to figure it out.  Think you could locate a hole and cut an armboard?
neo

[buckeyefanandy]

I have armboards for older rega, hadcock, and grahm arms.

Have a couple buddies that can help me and a local audio shop that is affordable and who have a couple guys that love the rock table.

My version is the mk 3 with the built in sink.

[sunnydaze]

As I mentioned in your other thread, unipivots are not advisable on the Rock.  That rules out the Hadcock and the Grahams.  Oh sure, you can use them without the trough, but that negates one of the main elements that makes the Rock so good.    Use them with the trough, and as arm paddle plows through the silicone trough arm will rock and azimuth will swing wildly.

If you can get it mounted on the Rock, any non-unipivot will work.

I see your arm budget is now up to $750 for arm alone.  On your other thread, unless I misunderstood,  you suggested $300 for arm and cart.  That's quite a difference, and opens up many more possibilities.

For fixed bearing arms, on my Rock 3 I have direct experience with:  modified Rega RB300, Kuzma Stogi,  Kuzma Stogi Reference, Linn Akito,  Linn Ittok,  Michell TecnoArm. 

I love the Kuzmas, but you will not find them at your budget.   Regas and their variants are commonly used on Rocks.  I have no problem with them sonically, but I dislike the inability to easily adjust VTA.  Shims?   Nonsence!  Others may be OK with that, but I'm not.  Depending on the cart and stylus profile, getting the VTA right can be critical.  IMO, not having the ability to do so is a deal killer.

They don't show up often, but for less than 750 you can get a used TecnoArm w/ VTA adjuster.  Couple of years ago a local buddy got one for his Rock 3, paid 550 used.  Also, used Regas (and variants) with those add on aftermarket VTA adjusters should easily come in under your max.

Linns sound great on my Rock so I rec them with confidence.   I currently use an Ittok, but their used prices have been climbing.  Few years ago EBay prices were around $700.  Recently I've seen completed sales at $800 to $1100!   Basic and older Akito models are doable,  100 to 400 range.

No direct experience with Jelco, but based on my readings, I feel safe in recommending them.  Many users feel they compete with arms at multiples their price.  It's reported that Jelco manufactured the Japan made Linn arms, among many other popular name brands (Mission, Audioquest, Roksan, Audioquest, Pro-ject, Sumiko, Koetsu, etc).   New prices for the 750D (9 incher) and 750E (10 incher) are quite reasonable and well within your budget.   Well made and visually appealing arms.  Detachable headshell makes for easy cartridge swapping.  Put my money where my mouth is -- just last week I bought a used 750E for about half your max budget.  Awaiting its arrival.

I wouldn't worry about the armboard.  Don't let it limit or govern your arm choices.  My advise, if it's even still available, don't buy from Townshend or an approved dealer.  You will get raped.  They are very simple affairs, quite easy to fabricate.  Any material roughly 1/4 inch thick will work -- wood, aluminum, steel, acrylic.  I bought a 12 x 24 inch sheet of 1/4 inch piano black cast acrylic on EBay.  Vendor even cut it into ten 4 x 5 inch rectangle pieces, no charge.   Voila!  A lifetime of blank armboards.  Get the arm you want and simply drill the appropriate holes.  Videos on YouTube on how to drill / cut acrylic.    Total price including shipping was under $30.

This is the vendor I used.  I'm sure there are many others.

http://stores.ebay.com/Delvies-Plastics

[buckeyefanandy]

The price I have been hunting at has been about $500 arm cart and wires.  The only arm I could find has jumped as stated in the other thread.  I put my ortofon cart up for auction and it is over $260 today, when I first started it was $.99.  So as the auction price climbs, so will my budget. 

Also seriously considering a local empire table that is plug and play so that I could figure the rest out when I have more vinyl miles under my belt.

[sunnydaze]

The price I have been hunting at has been about $500 arm cart and wires.  The only arm I could find has jumped as stated in the other thread.  I put my ortofon cart up for auction and it is over $260 today, when I first started it was $.99.  So as the auction price climbs, so will my budget. 

Huh?   

That's not what your first post here says.  It says  budget for arm (no mention of cart) is 500,  plus the sold cart proceeds:

"I have $500 for an arm plus I am selling a vintage NOS ortofon s 15-t cart and some other extra gear to add some extra cash so I may be looking in the $500 to $750 range."

as far as "only arm you could find" ...............
Why is it limited to the Micro Seiki?     

You say you are willing to buy used.  Tons of used arms in your budget all over the place.  I have mentioned several.  So why is the MS the only arm???  I assume you are aware of Audiogon,  AudioAsylum Trader,  USA Audiomart,  Canuck AudioMart,  EBay??

I give input based on what you write.  Moving targets are hard to hit.   Call me..........confused!

[buckeyefanandy]

You are confusing me too.  I thought you were referencing the wanted ad that I posted a few days ago.  I was talking about the only arm that I could find locally was that CF-1 at a local dealer.  The budget was based on the prices that were included in his price that seemed to be a poor value.  The ad was trying to find a seller that might have a budget arm, specifically a rega or rega based arm. 

After reading your post and the info I could find online, I realized that I may be in too deep on the Townshend.  I have about $500 cash in hand, and thought the cart would sell for $200 give or take.  After one day it is already surpassed my expectation with 7 days to go.  I may end up with $800 or more total to spend for a arm, cart, wire combo or may elect to buy a simple older table to get my feet wet in the analogue front end and box the Rock up till I know more what I doing.

I have made a few attempts to get this done over the years with little success.  The learning curve seems to be much steeper than I anticipated.  Reading some of the posts out there are like reading greek.  It seems that there is a lot of pieces/parts that need to dialed in and some of this was not factored into my initial thinking and budget.   

Am looking into the Linn and Jelco options, but not seeing many out there.  Especially confused when it factors in the VTA, Azimuth, and other variables that I have no experience with.

[GentleBender]

I have made a few attempts to get this done over the years with little success.  The learning curve seems to be much steeper than I anticipated.  Reading some of the posts out there are like reading greek.  It seems that there is a lot of pieces/parts that need to dialed in and some of this was not factored into my initial thinking and budget.   

Am looking into the Linn and Jelco options, but not seeing many out there.  Especially confused when it factors in the VTA, Azimuth, and other variables that I have no experience with.

You are not the only person in that boat. I started with a cheap Audio Technica AT-LP120USB table that I was able to setup in minutes and enjoy listening to my vinyl. Now I am waiting on a VPI HW-19 with a TNT platter to play with and figure out. There are many out there that think my cheap turntable was a waste of money, but I purchased it for about $200 new then upgraded the cartridge and have not had a single problem with it. I love listening to music and even enjoy doing some system tweaking from time to time. If getting a "serious" turntable turns into spending all my time adjusting and troubleshooting I will give it up. I listen to music to relax or party down, not to spend hours troubleshooting and shaking my fist. At least I will have my "cheap" turntable to use as I figure out the VPI. 

[neobop]

Well, you could buy an inexpensive table, but you already have something better.  Do you want to have 2 tables or 1 really good one in your man cave?   It's confusing at first, but that's only because you're unfamiliar.  Really, this isn't rocket science.  Check this out:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tonearms-audioquest-pt-6-tonearm-with-free-ortofon-510-mkii-cartridge-priced-for-quick-sale-2015-04-04-analog-93101-santa-barbara-ca

This would bolt right in to your Linn armboard.  The MM cart can be upgraded with a new fine line or FG 70 stylus - around $200 to 250.  Not a bad way to get it going. There's a Linn Basic Plus (similar arm) w/Grado minus stylus, for the same money:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649163769-linn-sondek-basic-plus-tonearm-japan-with-linn-tonearm-cable-also-includes-grado-cartridge/

There's a bran new Teac table for $400.  No reviews yet - looks nice:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1108889-REG/teac_tn_300_ch_analog_turntable_with_usb.html

neo

[sunnydaze]

OK...let's keep it simple.

For $800 total, you can definitely do a nice arm + cart + tonearm cable setup on the Rock.  I've done it on my table, and earlier I gave several actual examples within budget.  You can rely on my data -- I'm well acquainted with the Rock, and very tuned into the used markets. 

At the risk of being repetitive, let's review used arms I've already mentioned :

Linn Basic or older Akito:   $100 - $400

Linn Ittok:  if lucky and timing is right,  $700   (only $100 left for cart, but doable; can upgrade later)

Jelco 750D:  $550 brand new;  cheaper used

Jelco made arms (Audioquest / Sumiko / etc):  below $400

Rega / Rega variants:   $100 to $300;  a bit more for VTA adjusters

Plenty left for a very decent cartridge.  I have already suggested this almost new Dyna 10x as a good match for $225 (maybe less if you bargain):

http://audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Phono-Cartridge/Dynavector/10x5/Moving-Coil-Cartridge/130028 

This is just "for example". Many others will fit the bill.  I've bought the following used carts, $250  to $500 range,  and all have been  excellent in my setup:  SAE 1000e, Dynavector 20X-H,  Dynavector 20X-L,  Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood,  Clearaudio Maestro.

I suggest these names based on direct experience, and the knowledge that they work well on the Rock.  Split your total budget across the two pieces however you want.  There are many combos that will work well and get you in under $800.  What's the confusion?  Just because they are not offered today, doesn't mean they won't be tomorrow.  Patience.  Strike when you see a good deal from a reliable seller.

And I can say with some confidence that $800 spent on the Rock will easily beat any complete package for the same green.   And the setup issues (VTA, VTF, null points) are exactly the same, regardless of Rock or plug and play.

Don't get lost in the trees.  Not as hard as you think.  Main elements:

Mount distance = table spindle to arm pivot distance.  If you can use a ruler, you can do this.

VTF is simply setting the tracking force on the stylus.  Cake.

VTA is simply raising / lowering the back of the arm till it sounds right.  Usually when arm is approx level to record surface.   Use a lined index card to get arm level.  Use ears to get best setting around that point. Cake.

Azimuth :  forget about it.  With exception of Jelco,  most arms at your price point will not have azimuth adjustment.

Null points:  many free online protractors to set overhang and offset angle.  It's really not hard.  Requires a bright light, magnifying glass, and some patience.  Find a local hobbyest that is willing to help.

Don't give up on the Rock.    Apart from the process of mapping out mounting distance and installing the arm, plug and play does not eliminate these setups.  So I fail to see what it gets you, apart from inferior sound.       

[buckeyefanandy]

I am hunting for a linn arm and have some feelers out.  I feel good about the Rock recommendations, but not so confident in my own understanding yet.  The idea of having a simple table, vintage was appealing because it would take the pressure off.  I found a local empire 298, original owner for $275.  It is not museum quality perfect, but nice looking and with all original boxes, paperwork, etc.  With a new cart, i can have music spinning in a couple days.  The concern I had was making a mistake and damaging the albums, where I plan to make a significant investment. 
 
After reading more I am just going to jump in both feet and get the best arm I can find/afford and live with it for a while.  I am very appreciative of the advice and information shared.  I know learning from others experience is very valuable. 

I also have a email out on an audiomods arm that has come highly recommended from a fellow rock owner. 

Thanks everyone for the response, I enjoy hearing about others experiences.

[sunnydaze]

Confidence and expertise will come with experience.  It's really not as daunting as it seems initially.  Just a lil bit of a learning curve.  Don't be afraid to be hands-on.

You cannot go wrong with an audiomods arm.  Good luck!

[buckeyefanandy]

Have narrowed it down to three possibilities and waiting to hear back from the sellers.  Will update when something gets done.  Thanks for the advice.

[PMAT]

  Don't give up....... So close.........

[roscoeiii]

Audiomods arm is great,  worth stretching for. Loved mine on my Rock. That or a Rega would also be my rec. Tho the Linn also seems solid,  I just don't have any experience with them.

[sunnydaze]

At $800 total including cartridge, I just don't think there are that many arm options.  Of course there is vintage, but I haven't discussed / recommended those because I don't play in that world, and my knowledge base is zero.

Unipivots are out d/t bad fit with the silicone trough.   There might be a few that escape me, but AFAIK, it's basically limited to the fixed bearing names I've already mentioned:  Rega, Rega variants, Linn, Jelco, Jelco made arms under different names.   I have direct experience with the first three, and a Jelco is on its way.

[roscoeiii]

And buckeyefanandy,

There are a few of us here who are Rock owners who can help if you run into any problems.   

[buckeyefanandy]

I am waiting for pictures, but have it narrowed down to the audiomods series 4 (unsure of the options) and an alphason arm.  Details about what is included and condition should be in tonight.  The alphason is the xenon arm that has been favorably reviewed.  The seller has both options and several carts, so we may close a package deal if all goes well.

[sunnydaze]

Hey Buck....

Just a quick heads up....... 

The Alphason may be a problem.  It has a raised ridge down the middle of the headshell.  It needs to be completely flat in order to attach the Rock's double outrigger paddle.

photo of paddle:    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Townshend-Audio-Double-Outrigger-and-Paddle-/230988879962?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35c802985a

photo of headshell:   http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649001593-oracle_delphi_mk_iialphason_xenon_mcs/

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  Looks like a sweet arm.

[buckeyefanandy]

Wow, had not seen that.  Will see what I can find out, but thanks for pointing that out.