Too many tubes?

Escott1377 · « **on:** 21 Mar 2015, 01:33 am »

Please offer your opinion(s) in regards to there being too many tube components w/ in your system, and as the number increase so does the difficulty to find solid combination.

for example:
Phone pre - 4 x Mullard 6922
DAC - 2 x Ediswan 6922
Pre - 2 x Amperex 7062 and 2 x GE 7044

I also bi amp my speakers so my tweeters and miss have a dedicated mono bloc for each with 4 x EL 34 stock tubes, 2 x Mazda 12ax7, and 2 French made 12au7.

With all of these variables, how does 1 find a correct balance - besides the obvious of listening to one's ears.

galyons · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 01:51 am »

Quote from: Escott1377 on 21 Mar 2015, 01:33 am

snip...

With all of these variables, how does 1 find a correct balance - besides the obvious of listening to one's ears.

Why would anything else matter?

Cheers,
Geary

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 01:59 pm »

How good of "tube chef" are you? A real chef knows what to add to create the perfect complex blend of taste sensations.

I can barely order at Subway without ruining the sandwich, so I keep it simple with a single tubed component in the mix and roll output tubes.

rollo · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 03:03 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 21 Mar 2015, 01:59 pm

How good of "tube chef" are you? A real chef knows what to add to create the perfect complex blend of taste sensations.

I can barely order at Subway without ruining the sandwich, so I keep it simple with a single tubed component in the mix and roll output tubes.

Well said JLM. Hands on experience with tube character goes a long way. Just listen and decide, that simple.

charles

Escott1377 · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 05:08 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 21 Mar 2015, 01:59 pm

How good of "tube chef" are you? A real chef knows what to add to create the perfect complex blend of taste sensations.

I can barely order at Subway without ruining the sandwich, so I keep it simple with a single tubed component in the mix and roll output tubes.

I have read that output tubes have the least amount of sonic impact? I can understand the difference between say a EL34 and KT88, but do power tubes makes a large difference in the sound going to the speaker?

WireNut · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 05:53 pm »

My last preamp had 8 tubes. Don't think I'll ever do that again, maybe 4 tubes at the very most. To much noise/hiss.

MtnHam · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 07:02 pm »

Too many tubes for me is any large power amplifier. I've had that in the past (ARC) and will not go back. Too much heat, and too frequent a need for tube replacement, at least for one who wants it on (or at least ready) much of the time. And, I was subject to PTSD from multiple catastrophic tube failures! Tubes elsewhere are fine. Small tubes have a very long life, and they don't cause explosions or smoke.

Wolfie62 · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 08:29 pm »

Yes, I think you can have too many tubes....in that failure modes increase astronomically. A different problem, though that I have. Back in 1990, when I was stationed overseas, I raided the trash dump on the island on which I lived. One of the Navy facilities was getting rid of all the tube lab equipment, and all inventories of military and commercial tube stocks. Well, I got them all, and still have them. Hundreds of signal and power amp tubes, still in original boxes. Are they worth anything, to anybody? Also, I held on to two vacuum powered O-scopes, Tectronics, storage type, 0-650 khertz. Had them calibrated at the avionics facility before I carefully packed them away. Never been opened or used since then. Any value on those, either? Was just wondering.

MtnHam · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 08:35 pm »

Quote from: WireNut on 21 Mar 2015, 05:53 pm

My last preamp had 8 tubes. Don't think I'll ever do that again, maybe 4 tubes at the very most. To much noise/hiss.

Too much noise/hiss is a factor of design. My ARC REF2-SE phono preamp has 6 tubes, provides 65db of gain, and is dead quiet! Previously, I had an Aesthetix Rhea phono stage, which was very noisey!

SteveFord · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Mar 2015, 08:59 pm »

I don't think it's possible to have too many tubes (except for in the Summer or when it's replacement power tube time).
Okay, I draw the line at a tube powered subwoofer.

Steve · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Mar 2015, 04:18 am »

Quote from: Escott1377 on 21 Mar 2015, 05:08 pm

I have read that output tubes have the least amount of sonic impact? I can understand the difference between say a EL34 and KT88, but do power tubes makes a large difference in the sound going to the speaker?

Depends. I have tested EH, new Tung Sol, SED, Winged C, JJ 6550s and KT88s and found some similar, but others quite different sounding.
The EH and new Tung Sols were as far apart as possible, with EH full while new TS were quite thin in comparison in the same circuit (no adaptation). JJ, SED, and Winged C were fairly similar.

Small tubes also make a sonic difference, as you indicated.

I try to keep the number of stages and tubes to an absolute minimum as each stage will deteriorate the sound.

Cheers
Steve

Cheers
Steve

borism · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Mar 2015, 01:14 pm »

I also believe that you can't have to many tubes. It's all about the individual component's design and the quality of the tubes.

I have an Atma-Sphere S30 amplifier with 10 6AS7G power tubes and 6 6SN7 driver tubes combined with an AS preamplifier line stage with another 4 tubes. The combination is completely quiet and neutral.

My second amplifier is a Bottlehead Stereomour SET integrated that I built myself as a kit. It has only 3 tubes, one 12AT7 driver and two 2A3 power tubes. It is remarkable how similar the two amplifications sound when matched for loudness. Both without noise through very sensitive speakers. Of course the more powerful AS system plays much louder.

Boris

jsm71 · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Mar 2015, 03:14 pm »

My Cary preamp has 8 tubes (4 x 6SN7GT, 2 x 12AX7, 2 12AU7). My Decware amp has 10 tubes (4 x KT66, 4 x 6N23P-EV, 2 x OC3). I've done full NOS swaps on the preamp to great benefit. The amp is stock and I have no wish to roll there. The combination is wonderful and DEAD quiet.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Mar 2015, 04:58 pm »

Quote from: Escott1377 on 21 Mar 2015, 05:08 pm

I have read that output tubes have the least amount of sonic impact? I can understand the difference between say a EL34 and KT88, but do power tubes makes a large difference in the sound going to the speaker?

Some tube experts suggest the driver tube creates more differences in the end sound result than a EL34 Mullard or a EL34 GE, JJ etc
The EL34 x KT88 differences are huge.

E55l2 · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Mar 2015, 09:58 pm »

Some tube experts..... He he, who cares what THEY have to say?

Experts come with a theory, a proof, measurements.

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 22 Mar 2015, 04:58 pm

Some tube experts suggest the driver tube creates more differences in the end sound result than a EL34 Mullard or a EL34 GE, JJ etc
The EL34 x KT88 differences are huge.

Escott1377 · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Mar 2015, 12:23 am »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 22 Mar 2015, 04:58 pm

Some tube experts suggest the driver tube creates more differences in the end sound result than a EL34 Mullard or a EL34 GE, JJ etc
The EL34 x KT88 differences are huge.

How about the KT90? Each mono bloc takes 4 output tubes, producing 70 W in UL and 40 in triode.

These are only powering the highs / mids on my speakers.

Would the KT90 produce a more open effect - airiness even?

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Mar 2015, 12:37 am »

Quote from: Escott1377 on 23 Mar 2015, 12:23 am

How about the KT90? Each mono bloc takes 4 output tubes, producing 70 W in UL and 40 in triode.

These are only powering the highs / mids on my speakers.

Would the KT90 produce a more open effect - airiness even?

I dont know about the KT90. Seems to me the prob is lack of sound detail due the lack of harmonics and micro reverb which are being eaten by the crossover of the speakers;

Crossovers demand a minimum energy to works, this dc energy came from the amp and is lost as heat etc

Escott1377 · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Mar 2015, 02:07 am »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 23 Mar 2015, 12:37 am

I dont know about the KT90. Seems to me the prob is lack of sound detail due the lack of harmonics and micro reverb which are being eaten by the crossover of the speakers;

Crossovers demand a minimum energy to works, this dc energy came from the amp and is lost as heat etc

I am getting very good results from the EL34's that are in place. This is "in my opinion" the most musical power tube.

I suppose I need to grab some KT90's and try them out

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Mar 2015, 12:53 pm »

Quote from: Escott1377 on 23 Mar 2015, 02:07 am

I am getting very good results from the EL34's that are in place. This is "in my opinion" the most musical power tube.

I suppose I need to grab some KT90's and try them out

The EL34 has the great merit of transforming bad recordings in good ones.
I think the kind of improvement that you want can not be achieved with exchange of tubes, only changing the speakers.
So better dont spend in tubes IMO;

kingdeezie · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Mar 2015, 02:24 pm »

I know I have too many damn tubes....

Each of my Manley Neo Classic 250 Monoblocks has 13 tubes, for a total of 26 amplifier tubes. Then, I just got a Vac Ren MK 3 with Phono, which I think has 8 tubes total.

That's 34 tubes total!

I should just buy some Atmasphere Monos and really send myself into O(CD)verdrive.