[I.Greyhound Fan]

Glad the speed box helped.  That seemed to be your biggest complaint.   Slow classical passages okay now?  Most cork mats are much thicker than the felt.  Is the cart now playing with tail down?  If so it might be the reason for more mellow sound, plus the compliant mat.   I believe Herbie's has a thin mat used as a felt replacement.  Without height adjustment you might want to consider trying different mats of varying thickness. 

The 2M Red now has a substantial following.  I would be interested in what upgrading to the Blue stylus does.  The Carbon arm is very low mass and something like the 2M compliance is recommended, although it might not be your ultimate cart.  A low compliance cart like the MP200 or Clearaudio MM is not the best match.  Next move is upgrading your amp/phono? 

I think a balanced approach is best.  Only you can decide if the record player is satisfactory.  I would not put an expensive cart on the table, but if you want a different sound maybe we can help figure it out.   An expensive cart on an inexpensive player can reveal all the shortcomings and actually sound worse.   Anyway, you're going to be shelling out some green on the amp/phono replacement.  Let us know how it goes.
neo

I beg to differ on the cartridge.  The Carbon TT will benefit from a cartridge in the $250-550 range.  I have heard the TT and set one up for a friend.  With the speed control, the TT performs above its price point.  Running a $100 cartridge on this TT  would be holding its potential back.  It is well made and it has a very good tone arm.  I tried the TT in my reference system with my BAT preamp and Pass amp and it sounded very good taking into account the 2M Red cartridge which is over hyped despite its following for lower end TT's. (there are plenty of guys over at the Vinyl Engine forum that dislike the 2M Red and feel that it overhyped, but to each his own)  It is bright sounding and noisy,  It has good dynamics and sparkle which is fine for low end systems and cheap phono preamps.

[orientalexpress]

I have a project RM-5  with Blue Point carltridge that a great match ,should be a great match with your also.

[neobop]

I beg to differ on the cartridge.  The Carbon TT will benefit from a cartridge in the $250-550 range.  I have heard the TT and set one up for a friend.  With the speed control, the TT performs above its price point.  Running a $100 cartridge on this TT  would be holding its potential back.  It is well made and it has a very good tone arm.  I tried the TT in my reference system with my BAT preamp and Pass amp and it sounded very good taking into account the 2M Red cartridge which is over hyped despite its following for lower end TT's. (there are plenty of guys over at the Vinyl Engine forum that dislike the 2M Red and feel that it overhyped, but to each his own)  It is bright sounding and noisy,  It has good dynamics and sparkle which is fine for low end systems and cheap phono preamps.

You can differ all you want, but your objections without an alternative, are misplaced.  Maybe you misses it:

"So far, I’m extremely pleased with the results and this has become a table I’m happy listening to, to the point where I’m starting to think an upgrade to the Ortofon 2M Blue isn’t even warranted. Having said that, one -is- on the way so I will post updates, if there is interest."

The 2M Red and Blue share the same body so with the Blue stylus OP has a $220 cart.  Perhaps you don't like the 2M series, or not expensive enough?

That 2M Red cartridge has go to go!  I tried it in my Thorens and it was way too irritating and noisy.  I bought a Nagaoka MP-200 and every thing is better- detail, less background noise and no fatigue.  Bass is better, the sound is warmer but not overly warm and it is more forgiving of surface noise.

I have also heard the 2M Red on a Carbon Debut and I was not impressed.  The TT needs a better cartridge.

I would also consider a better phono preamp in the future.

The MP200 is not a good choice for a 6g arm. 
http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?tech=debutcarbondc&cat=turntables&lang=en

Just because your experience (one?) and some guys at VE say the Red is overhyped, doesn't make it so, although I'm not sure how a $100 cart can be overhyped.   There are some highly vocal fans over at Agon forum who think it's great, but that doesn't confirm anything either.  The 2M range tend to be of the accurate variety, opposed to mellow, like Nagaoka.  But now we're talking about the Blue.  One thing for sure - anyone can adjust loading on either a bright or dull MM, and shape the tonal response.  The Blue has a nude elliptical with lower tip mass.  Should be a better tracker with smoother response.  If Privateer is happy I think his money is better spent putting it towards new electronics.
neo
 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I am just saying that before dumping the TT for a more expensive one, that I would upgrade the cartridge first.  You made the comment that you would not spend more money on a cartridge for that TT.  My point is that the TT will respond to a better cartridge and the money would be well spent on a cartridge that has blacker background, less grain, more detail and resolution and better sound stage.  Maybe my system is too revealing for the 2M Red but I stand by my opinion of it.  My experience with the 2M Red includes 2 TT's, 2 systems and 2 2M Reds.  I lived with a 2M Red in my system for 1 month, more than enough time for me to form an opinion of it.  As far as the MP-200 is concerned, it is more of a medium compliance cartridge and it is any thing but mellow.  It has dynamics that are better than the 2M with more detail, resolution,  a much blacker background, a wider and deeper sound stage, and a slightly warmer darker sound. So lets agree to disagree.

[neobop]

I am just saying that before dumping the TT for a more expensive one, that I would upgrade the cartridge first.  You made the comment that you would not spend more money on a cartridge for that TT.  My point is that the TT will respond to a better cartridge and the money would be well spent on a cartridge that has blacker background, less grain, more detail and resolution and better sound stage.  Maybe my system is too revealing for the 2M Red but I stand by my opinion of it.  My experience with the 2M Red includes 2 TT's, 2 systems and 2 2M Reds.  I lived with a 2M Red in my system for 1 month, more than enough time for me to form an opinion of it.  As far as the MP-200 is concerned, it is more of a medium compliance cartridge and it is any thing but mellow.  It has dynamics that are better than the 2M with more detail, resolution,  a much blacker background, a wider and deeper sound stage, and a slightly warmer darker sound. So lets agree to disagree.

Trying to figure out why you persist in badmouthing the 2M, I think I've figured it out.  On 4/6 Privateer posted:

I wanted to post updates as I go along my upgrade path with the Project Debut Carbon, as I suspect this is a turntable many own and will be looking to improve.
For now:

1. Speedbox – Speed is now stable, and (marginally) more accurate after installing the Speedbox, as measured by the Turntabulator iPhone app. Incredibly, I did notice sound improvement beyond the speed stability issue. It notably gave a fuller sense to the music, essentially tightening up the bass and filling out the lower midrange. I previously always felt the turntable sounded slightly anemic compared to my digital setup (even through a very bright DAC and lean speakers). This fullness has improved balance tremendously and made the brightness+sibilance I mentioned previously less of an issue now. The change upon inserting the Speedbox (and confirmed by an easy A/B test) was significant, and this is coming from a skeptic.

2. Interconnects – The original Project interconnects had horrid quality, loose RCAs. Changing them to monoprice component video cable yielded some improvement but retained a slight muddiness. Now with a set of new Blue Jeans LC-1 cables, the sound gained significantly more coherence, and a more solid soundstage. This isn’t fancy cabling so I suspect it’s really down to the more solid connectors and the right capacitance of wire.

3. Wooden block – The turntable was resting on top of cheap-but-solid Ikea component shelving previously. I moved it to a heavy butcher block (Acacia, if it matters!) resting on the carpeted floor and the sound was instantly transformed, most notably with instruments gaining body and presence (imaging, rather than fullness of sound). Less “messy” sounding, if you will.

4. Cork Mat – This is an old tweak, but I’ll report it anyway. It gave a warmer, richer sound compared to the stock felt mat, which was welcoming, but I realize I was also sacrificing some level of detail. It’s a toss-up at this point, and I do switch between mats depending on the recording. It really is a trade-off at some point, in my system at least.


So far, I’m extremely pleased with the results and this has become a table I’m happy listening to, to the point where I’m starting to think an upgrade to the Ortofon 2M Blue isn’t even warranted. Having said that, one -is- on the way so I will post updates, if there is interest.

So, after Privateer is extremely happy with results and already ordered the Blue stylus, you go on about how bad the Red is.  "That 2M Red cartridge has go to go!" etc.

I didn't recommend anything and I assume you were unaware of the situation and that's why you were still talking about the Red and not Blue.  Maybe you should read preceding posts.  I suspect OP's budget is spent and getting a new table is out of the question.
neo

[Theprivateer]

Both neobop and Greyhound make excellent points. I do concur that the 2M Red can come across as somewhat bright, noisy and fatiguing.
Point of interest: tonight I realized I had accidentally been setting my VTF way too high (2.4g) and this resulted in the much fuller sound with less sibilance. Bringing it down to the recommended 1.8g resulted in the distortion/sibilance/leanness coming back on some of the more susceptible records. Settled on the maximum 2g as a compromise.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the Blue can do for my IGD issues. And it has been a good learning experience reading all the preceding commentary!

[neobop]

Privateer,
If the cart sounds significantly better at somewhat higher than recommended VTF, then by all means set it higher.  While you wait for the Blue stylus is a good time to experiment.  I'd take it down from 2.4 in 0.1g increments and see what is the least VTF without increased distortion, and leave it there.  It won't hurt anything and thinking that optimal VTF has to be within recommended range is obviously wrong.  By definition, optimal VTF is where tracking and tracing is optimized. 

The Blue stylus is the same size elliptical tip, only nude rather than bonded.  Tracking ability is rated at 80um (very good) as opposed to 70um (good).  You will probably be able to use less VTF w/o distortion, but you tell us. 
neo

[Rocket]

Hi,

I've always found that if you can spend a little more on cartridges even on a good quality entry level turntable and it will result in an improvement in sound quality.  The denon dl103 is one of my favourite budget cartridges at around $200usd.  I'm currently using this with a Goldnote Valore turntable and Goldnote De Medici phonostagle, both much more expensive than the denon dl103. 

I think I've got the balance fairly right with my system at the moment and enjoy vinyl very much.

Cheers Rod

[bacobits1]

If you recommend a DL103 you need the arm stepup/ or phono to go with it.
Debut arm is way too light. Not familiar with the adjustable features if any on an Arcam Built in.
If the Red stylus is fine I would work with the setup, use an arc protractor for that arm and table and listen again.

[Rocket]

Hi,

I'm not suggesting that the Denon DL103 is suitable for this particular turntable.  I was just making the comment that I think that you can use a more expensive cartridge and obtain a better result.  Although it would be silly to spend too much on a cartridge though.

Cheers Rod

[I.Greyhound Fan]

You can use a lower compliance cartridge with the Carbon arm.  There are quite a few posts of people using lower compliance cartridges with it.  The issue you run into is resonance problems but it the arm is well dampened then it is not much of an issue.  People are running Denon 110's, 103's, Nagaoka MP-110's and some LP gear AT-95sa's and AT-7's with the Carbon Debut.  I have also read that if you have the Debut Carbon with the DC motor that Grado's work well with out the hum issue.

[neobop]

The suggestion of using a 103 on a 6g arm is ill advised.   If that cart sounds best on arms >20g mass, and it does, why would anyone consider pairing it with an arm with too little mass to stabilize the body while tracking?  There's a difference between what you might be able to get away with, and what's best.  That difference pertains to sound quality and performance.

It doesn't matter what some rooky posted on another forum.  A 6g arm will generally sound best with carts of 18cu @ 10Hz, and greater.  There's more to this than resultant resonant frequency of a particular combination.  Put a low cu cart on a low mass arm and the bass tends to either drop out or lose definition.  The same thing happens with fine detail. 

Seems to me the price of an MP200 will get you a 2M Bronze stylus.  There's very little difference between the Red/Blue and Bronze/Black bodies.  The less expensive ones have slightly more inductance making them more bass oriented and easier to match/load.
I suspect the Blue stylus will be sufficient.  If more bass - less treble is still desired, then a couple of load resistors makes more sense.  I think Privateer could probably use the money upgrading his system, rather than starting a cart collection. 
neo

[Theprivateer]

Update: 2M Blue installed

So I’ve put about 10 hours on the new 2M Blue stylus now and wanted to share my thoughts. In brief, I’ve found the Blue to simply address the ills of the Red without offering an entirely new sound. With the exception of the first side or two, I didn’t notice any additional break-in time needed.

The most dramatic change was in the highs – the sibilance on loud female vocals and cymbals is almost completely cured, as is the inner groove distortion (which was horrendous on the Red). The midrange is fleshed out a bit more, and drum hits have more body -- they previously sounded slightly “plasticky” – although I still don’t get the full resonance and decay as on a top quality digital track. Bass is much tighter, without being any louder. Records play quieter, with far less surface noise. Loud and complex (classical) passages are still a little shaky, but the Blue remains unruffled on other dense material like heavy metal.

The better tonal balance has allowed me to return to the stock felt mat, which offers more transparency (at the slight expense of body/weight), without the annoying highs I got with the Red. As neobop pointed out, I’m looking for solutions rather than to have fun experimenting with carts, so the Blue is where I’ll stay for now. I’m sure the Bronze, MP200 etc. will offer more, but I suspect other areas in my setup (phono stage, isolation, alignment) are limiting factors at this point.

I’m now of the opinion that the 2M Blue is almost mandatory on the Debut Carbon, perhaps even more so than the Speed Box, although with the two in place, things are pretty satisfactory.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Glad to hear that the Blue stylus is working for you.  I have a friend that recently bought the Carbon Debut with the 2M Red and the sound is too brought and sibilant in his all marantz system.  I will tell him about your results.

[Theprivateer]

Glad to hear that the Blue stylus is working for you.  I have a friend that recently bought the Carbon Debut with the 2M Red and the sound is too brought and sibilant in his all marantz system.  I will tell him about your results.

As I mentioned several posts above, I found that a VTF of at least 2.0 (and possibly slightly beyond) helped with the tizzyness of the Red. I'd recommend he try that, while he thinks about the Blue.

[SteveRB]

on sale.

http://www.musicdirect.com/c-767-pro-ject-debut-iii.aspx