[macrojack]

Last November I had a PV System installed on my roof. The total cost was about $12,000 for the parts labor and permits. I also elected to upgrade my service panel to 200 amps prior to the install and that cost about $1200. As a bundle that will afford me about $4000 in tax credits, leaving just over $9000 to make up in electric production. There is an unknown equity gain in the property and there will be monthly rebates from Xcel Energy, my electric provider. There will also be an annual increase in the value of the juice I'm not paying for. All in all, the projection has it that I will pay off my 4320 kw system in 6-7 years with savings and rebates.

I'm very happy with my system and I just love my real time production monitoring software.

Out here in Colorado a lot of people have taken advantage of lowered prices and tax credits to switch over to solar. That makes me wonder why I have seen so little discussion on this site about the topic. Seems like a tech crowd like you guys would be all over this. Why aren't you?

[JLM]

Yes, am thinking about a PV system, even here in Michigan (the cloudest winter state), but our utilities are required to buy excess power from residential sources.  30% federal tax credit ends 12/31/2016.  We can add a frame to a 2nd story south facing section of the house to hold 18 panels that will provide shade on part of the deck, blend in perfectly with the roof line, and avoid roof penetrations.  (I designed our EPA 5 star house, "the house," 10 years ago with this in mind.)  We already have a 200 amp service but want to do some upgrades to our 1,000 square foot deck with this work, so estimated cost is $15,000 with 12 year payback (not great for sure), and nearly eliminate our electrical bill.  Being recently retired, eliminating bills is attractive.  I might even add a whole house automatic generator too, so as we age we won't worry about being able to pull start a portable generator. 

Why there isn't more interest in solar:  People don't have long-term perspectives; they'd rather put the money into other things; lack of sunlight in many locations; lack of utility/state incentives; site/house design restrictions; technology keeps improving so they wait; and better net energy savings available with more insulation/better windows/etc.

[charmerci]

Also - the power companies don't like independent solar.  NPR says they are working on repealing the credits/deductions. Given that it will probably won't go very far, they are going towards increasing the rates for non-solar homes to compensate. Now's a good time to get it done.

[Phil A]

I had mine done when the house was being built a couple of years ago.  The panels are integrated into the roof tile.

[macrojack]

The 30% tax credit snuck into law as part of the stimulus package. As JLM pointed out, it sunsets (pun?) at the end of 2016 and most assuredly will not be extended given the current trend of our elections. I'm still trying to find out if we can apply our credit after the 2016 tax year.

Retirement planning was my reason for going into the solar installation. I would really urge people to do this as early in life as you can. Sometime after 2020, when this installation has paid for itself, I will be looking at free electricity for the rest of my life. However, I will be 73 by then so there are questions about just how long after that I will benefit.

According to my info, the system should perform 80% of what it does now after 25 years and continue an unknown period of time after that. If you are in your 50s and stay in your house for the rest of your life, the payback should be enormous. One caution though, make sure your roof has a lot of years ahead before installing panels on it. If you have the land available, it can be a better idea to install on racks on the ground or on a metal roofed outbuilding.

Phil - I see a palm tree in your photo. Those usually exist in places that are subject to high winds. Is that why your panels are embedded? Or did you do that just for aesthetics?

Chamerci - Here in Colorado the state legislature requires that energy providers source 30% of their electricity from renewable sources. Rather than bear the cost of that installation themselves, they instituted their grid-tie program which allows for them to dictate limitations on the size and design of your install. This shifted the cost of hardware to the consumer. However, in order to get the ball rolling before the imposition of the mandate, they offered incentives to stimulate participation. Once the momentum was established and the quota was in sight, a rollback began. Initially they were offering something like 12 cents per month rebate for each watt of your system rating. Since it has been systematically reduced. I'm receiving 3 cents and have learned recently that now they offer only 2 cents.

The power company did the right thing in encouraging the use of solar but only because the government forced them to.

Fossil fuels are a finite resource. Arguments persist about how finite, but there can be no argument about the inevitability of universally dry wells. I think it might be a good idea to stop drawing it while there is still some down there. We are not required to use up every last drop. This, of course, indicates that an alternative source of energy will be needed. So when do we start to respond to this impending need ........ now? ...... or at the last possible minute when we are at our ripest for exploitation?

While I'm not actually independent, I have a very comforting sense of independence in knowing that I can produce my own electricity -- and if I were to switch to batteries, I could liberate myself from this one facet of corporate domination. Batteries, unfortunately don't seem to be at all practical as an alternative to grid tie at this time. And BTW, when you are grid-tied, your system goes down along with everyone else's in a power failure.

[Phil A]

Phil - I see a palm tree in your photo. Those usually exist in places that are subject to high winds. Is that why your panels are embedded? Or did you do that just for aesthetics?

They do it on new construction for aesthetics (here's a gallery of some stuff done by my builder - including mine http://www.buildingalifestyle.com/gallery-of-solar-powered-homes/).  I'm not in a high risk hurricane zone in FL.  Probably last (category 1) to hit near where I am was 20 years ago and the one before that was 1949. Panels power to run.  I have a generator panel and a back-up gasoline generator which I can wheel outside on a concrete slab and run lights, fridge, etc., and keep enough on hand during the peak season (and test it now and then) to keep it running for a bit.

[MtnHam]

I installed a 6.5kw system for my home 6 years ago when my average electric bill was $300/month. Since then, it has been near $0.00 and sometimes even money back. A similar system today will cost about $12,000 for materials, no labor. If you have typical homeowner skills, you can install it yourself. With some online research, you can find the technical info and advice necessary. Simply hire a qualified electrician to do the final hook-up. I am totally pleased with my investment, and highly recommend it. In fact I will soon install another system on another property.

[Atlplasma]

Also - the power companies don't like independent solar.  NPR says they are working on repealing the credits/deductions. Given that it will probably won't go very far, they are going towards increasing the rates for non-solar homes to compensate. Now's a good time to get it done.

Distributed power is the future--especially as better storage technologies come along. Utilities could still make money by shifting there focus to installation and maintenance of distributed power plants, but they don't seem to be showing much interest in modifying their business model.

[Don_S]

I live in an all-electric house.  Built when the local (now long-mothballed) nuke plant was supposed to provide electricity at next to no cost.  But due to my conservative living my annual bill is less than $1000 total and that includes a large pool. Most people would find my home uncomfortably warm or cold seasonally. Payback for me would be doubtful. I already have my best roof exposure covered with pool solar panels.

I do not worry that there is a finite source of carbon in the ground.  What worries me is that long before we run out of carbon the atmosphere will be beyond repair. So thank you to all solar panel users. 

One thing to think about is your lifestyle.  People who are retired or have one person home during the day will benefit most from solar electric.  I have a friend who just installed a system.  He loves it but explained to me how their habits have changed.  Excess electricity they sell to the local power company is much less per kwh than electricity they purchase. Therefore they do cooking, laundry, and pool filtering during the day when they are producing enough energy to cover those requirements. Here in central CA that would  normally be a no-no during the summer peak A/C hours.  So if you are considering solar and wonder about payback, consider your lifestyle. Will you be able to maximize the potential benefits?

[Atlplasma]

I live in an all-electric house.  Built when the local (now long-mothballed) nuke plant was supposed to provide electricity at next to no cost.  But due to my conservative living my annual bill is less than $1000 total and that includes a large pool. Most people would find my home uncomfortably warm or cold seasonally. Payback for me would be doubtful. I already have my best roof exposure covered with pool solar panels.

I do not worry that there is a finite source of carbon in the ground.  What worries me is that long before we run out of carbon the atmosphere will be beyond repair. So thank you to all solar panel users. 

One thing to think about is your lifestyle.  People who are retired or have one person home during the day will benefit most from solar electric.  I have a friend who just installed a system.  He loves it but explained to me how their habits have changed.  Excess electricity they sell to the local power company is much less per kwh than electricity they purchase. Therefore they do cooking, laundry, and pool filtering during the day when they are producing enough energy to cover those requirements. Here in central CA that would  normally be a no-no during the summer peak A/C hours.  So if you are considering solar and wonder about payback, consider your lifestyle. Will you be able to maximize the potential benefits?

Absolutely. And good for you Don_S. Most people don't realize that if stopped adding human-produced carbon dioxide to the atmosphere today, it would take centuries for levels to stabilize and begin falling (assuming the permafrost doesn't melt or the oceans don't stop working as an effective carbon sink). 

[Phil A]

Power companies might not like lots of things like - http://www.bloomenergy.com/

For now they don't have something cost effective for a homeowner.  However, if they get the cost of the technology down, power companies won't be overly happy (the way cable companies don't like HBO being sold via the web).

[Don_S]

Power companies might not like lots of things like - http://www.bloomenergy.com/

For now they don't have something cost effective for a homeowner.  However, if they get the cost of the technology down, power companies won't be overly happy (the way cable companies don't like HBO being sold via the web).

Yo-Power to the People-Right on.   

[Phil A]

I know when Bloom Energy started out they were touting a goal of a $3,000 unit (that was not all that large) that would sit in one's backyard and powering an average European house and two would power an average American House.  I have not followed it closely since then and that was a few years back.  I decided to do the solar plunge on the current house (which I had built and closed on in April 2013 and then moved into several months later) and figured after 8-9 years between resale value of the house and savings/tax credits it's a break even proposition. So a half dozen more years and it's nothing to have second thoughts on.

[ACHiPo]

I'm still thinking about it.  We moved from Portland, OR, where electricity is pretty cheap, to the Bay Area, where every month the PG&E bill is a shock.  Here on the tiered billing plan there are a couple keys to reducing costs--1) get an electric vehicle, which significantly reduces the top rate payed for electricity, and 2) install solar to keep consumption down to the 1st or 2nd billing tier.  A buddy of mine installed solar at his place (bought and paid for, not leased or some other arrangement), and his electric bill is typically zero to small double digits.  He figures an 8 year return (including tax credits), after which he'll be making money.

[JLM]

Distributed power is the future--especially as better storage technologies come along. Utilities could still make money by shifting there focus to installation and maintenance of distributed power plants, but they don't seem to be showing much interest in modifying their business model.

On-site power production has huge advantages.  70% of all power from power plants is wasted in transmission losses.  Lots of efforts spent maintaining power lines (and where nearly all utility outages originate).  On this nice mild sunny morning we lost power for an hour, but the current cost of being fully independent via solar is high (batteries or fuel cell, and for how long?).  That's why I'm considering a whole house generator (we use propane, so an easy hook-up).

[macrojack]

A lot of interest and a lot of hesitation expressed here. But maybe you want to look beyond the purest ledger details and consider jumping in with both feet. Maybe you will invest in solar just because it's something you want. After all, what is the payback time on your preamp or speakers? It's never in most cases so perhaps a slightly different perspective would make you more careful about investing.

I know my payback time and I think I may have made a wise purchase but I don't know. Prices may go down but once the current IRS tax credit lapses, you will lose an opportunity that is not likely to be equaled by tech advances in the field. It's something like buying a computer in that there really is no best time to take the plunge. The field advances quickly and you really can't defeat the inevitable obsolescence factor no matter how you twist the numbers or how long you wait.

I would urge anyone who is tempted to install PV panels to just up and do it. There's no time like the present. And, incidentally, you'll get some useful info from this thread but you must also investigate the circumstances in your area. The validity of this venture can be greatly influenced by local details.

[MtnHam]

A lot of interest and a lot of hesitation expressed here. But maybe you want to look beyond the purest ledger details and consider jumping in with both feet. Maybe you will invest in solar just because it's something you want. After all, what is the payback time on your preamp or speakers? It's never in most cases so perhaps a slightly different perspective would make you more careful about investing.

I know my payback time and I think I may have made a wise purchase but I don't know. Prices may go down but once the current IRS tax credit lapses, you will lose an opportunity that is not likely to be equaled by tech advances in the field. It's something like buying a computer in that there really is no best time to take the plunge. The field advances quickly and you really can't defeat the inevitable obsolescence factor no matter how you twist the numbers or how long you wait.

I would urge anyone who is tempted to install PV panels to just up and do it. There's no time like the present. And, incidentally, you'll get some useful info from this thread but you must also investigate the circumstances in your area. The validity of this venture can be greatly influenced by local details.

Absolutely agree. Making the move 6 years ago, the cost was much higher, but no regrets. If you live where power is cheap, ie: less than $0.10Khw, it won't make sense on a purely economic basis. California, with it's tiered pricing, is one of the highest.

If you want to explore the possibility, I recommend contacting 3 or more local solar contractors for bids. You will learn how they would configure a system for your location, the cost, and whether or not it's even feasible at your site. Figure their price will be at least twice the cost of the components.

[rpf]

I'm still concerned about the efficiency, reliability and serviceability (meaning the company will remain in business and have the parts over time). There have been a lot of swings in the solar market in the last decade or so.

Despite the current political and utility hostility to solar, I think that in about five years (hopefully less) the tide of opinion will overwhelmingly turn to distributed solar as the effects of fossil fuel use become hugely and incontrovertibly negative (as if they aren't now - but some people are slow). At which time I think it likely there will be better credits (state, federal and utility) than have existed in the recent past.

Likewise, I hope that concurrently there will be an increase in efficiency due to new technology and a decrease in cost due to an increase in supply and new design/production breakthroughs. All leading to a more stable, long term market.


My perspectives anyway, fwtw.

[MtnHam]

I'm still concerned about the efficiency, reliability and serviceability (meaning the company will remain in business and have the parts over time). There have been a lot of swings in the solar market in the last decade or so.

Despite the current political and utility hostility to solar, I think that in about five years (hopefully less) the tide of opinion will overwhelmingly turn to distributed solar as the effects of fossil fuel use become hugely and incontrovertibly negative (as if they aren't now - but some people are slow). At which time I think it likely there will be better credits (state, federal and utility) than have existed in the recent past.

Likewise, I hope that concurrently there will be an increase in efficiency due to new technology and a decrease in cost due to an increase in supply and new design/production breakthroughs. All leading to a more stable, long term market.


My perspectives anyway, fwtw.

If you live where electricity is expensive, the tide turned long ago. Germany, California. and elsewhere already have a large solar base. The equipment is proven. Reliability is not an issue. Even if your installer is gone, there are will be service available, should you need it.

Because the cost has already come down significantly in the last 5 years, government incentives are less necessary and declining, and will most likely diminish, rather than increase in coming years.

[macrojack]

If you live where electricity if expensive, the tide turned long ago. Germany, California. and elsewhere already have a large solar base. The equipment is proven. Reliability is not an issue. Even if your installer is gone, there are will be service available, should you need it.

Because the cost has already come down significantly in the last 5 years, government incentives are less necessary and declining, and will most likely diminish, rather than increase in coming years.

My independent research supports every word in the above paragraph. MtnHam has done his homework.

The system I purchased is comprised of:

16 each -- Solar World 270 watt PV panels > Solar World is a German Company manufacturing these panels in Oregon
16 each -- Enphase Energy M250 Micro Inverters > These inverters come from an industry leader and have a very low failure rate
Lots of hardware I needn't enumerate > Includes racks and bolts - wire and conduit
Various Enphase connectors >  proprietary connectors on weatherproof cables
Enphase Envoy production Monitor > wondrous little unit that captures all your data and transmits it  to your router. It uses the Enlighten software to measure and record the production of each individual panel and the system as a whole. It provides graphs and charts to demonstrate what is happening, now and in the past. I watch this thing like a day trader watches the market. All data also is transmitted to Enphase. If an inverter fails, they know immediately which one and that it belongs here. A replacement is dispatched to you immediately.
This is not tube electronics either so the reliability is solid state solid. No moving parts anywhere. Nothing to maintain but clean glass.
I've considered outlining the details of my grid contract but it would only apply to Excel users in Colorado. Each state and each provider has their own program parameters, I'm told. I think the biggest concerns are how long you will stay in your house and how long your roof under the panels is apt to last. Other than that, just the obvious: will you have enough sun and do you give a shit.
Right now it is 6:57 P.M. and we have produced 24.8 kilowatts today. There is about a half hour ti sunset so I imagine this is pretty close to what we will finish with today. So far this month, we have produced 318 KWH which puts me on track to reach my quota for a month in March, most of which lies on the short side of the equinox. My installer told me that I might well see 35 kilowatts per day this summer. I'm watching with intense interest.