[macrojack]

I'm on the grid. The juice my panels produce goes into the vast reservoir from which we all draw. Because it passes through my production meter, I get credit for that amount being mine. As far as I know, the stuff coming out of the wall is the same as it was before my panels were installed and activated.
If I was off the grid, I suppose my electric power would be much cleaner, particularly if I used it as DC.

There's a thought - With the birth of LIO there should be many Red Wine pieces up for sale at very attractive prices. With one panel and a sizable battery, you could run an all analogue - all DC system. Can't get any cleaner than that.

[ACHiPo]

During the last 6 years I have had a 6.5kw PV system running, producing on average $400/month of energy (at PG&E's rates). My very revealing system is on 24/7 (at least the SS parts.) I have never noticed any noise from the PV system. Granted, I have some serious AC purifying gear because I believe a lot of noise is generated within the house and within the digital gear, but aside from that, I never sensed that the solar was a problem.

That's good to know.  Actually after I posted this I realized that I'm usually not home listening when the panels will be doing their thing.  Sounds like we have a similar set up--my system is supposed to generate a little under 8 kW DC and 7 kW AC for a savings of about $500/month.

[macrojack]

That's good to know.  Actually after I posted this I realized that I'm usually not home listening when the panels will be doing their thing.  Sounds like we have a similar set up--my system is supposed to generate a little under 8 kW DC and 7 kW AC for a savings of about $500/month.

Please read my previous post. There is no direct relationship between the electricity you produce and that which you consume if you are grid tied.

[Phil A]

I'm on the grid as well and have an 8.6KW system (as was posted earlier in the thread).  I have a pool pump running 8 hours a day and last month's bill (net of credits for what was produced) was $24+ and the one before that was $39+.  In the main system, I have a Torus RM-20 (on its own 20 amp circuit) which isolates much of the crap from the system.  I had it (the Torus) in my old place as well.

[ACHiPo]

Please read my previous post. There is no direct relationship between the electricity you produce and that which you consume if you are grid tied.

Guess my post wasn't clear.  My question was whether the electrical noise generated by the inverter would cause audible issues.  I then realized that I'm not home listening most of the time when the photons will be doing their magic and the inverters will be switching away.  Anyway, I'm still looking forward to generating power.

[Phil A]

I have not noticed a drop of difference in the new place vs. the old.  If anything I'd think the interface is one additional step to deliver more uniform voltage to the electrical box.  I've not done extension testing but from the couple of times I did minor electrical work or looked at the face of a UPS on a spare computer, while it could be coincidence, it looks like voltage swings may be a little less than in my old place.  There are white papers - solectria_harmonics_noise_pv_inverters_ white_paper.pdf   and other info - http://www.solarpanelinfo.com/solar-panels/inverters/   "An inverter converts a direct current to an alternating current through a delicate electrical switching process. This process makes an inverter function as a synthesized alternator, which are typically used to produce AC current by creating a smooth alternation, similar to a pendulum gently swinging. This alternation takes the form of a sine wave, which is the ideal wave pattern for transmitting AC power."

[nickd]

I took the plunge and bought a 21 panel PV system last week that will produce about 5.5 KW on a good sunny day. I had not really thought much about inverter noise. The system uses EnPhase M250 micro inverters. I have 5 dedicated 20 amp circuits into my music room and installed a 9' grounding rod some time ago. I do experience noise from time to time from my neighbors running microwaves and other noisy appliances. As I do most of my listening on Sat and Sun mornings and a few late nights (9-11 PM) I don't see my PV system really affecting anything other than providing a break on insane utility rates here in SO. CA.

It does sound like I may have to invest a bit more in power scrubbing though. My dated Monster 5000 power conditioner is probably not up to the task with all the new noisy stuff that is being added to the grid. Even in my own house I have been adding gear with switching power supplies to save heat and energy.

[MtnHam]

"It does sound like I may have to invest a bit more in power scrubbing though. My dated Monster 5000 power conditioner is probably not up to the task with all the new noisy stuff that is being added to the grid. Even in my own house I have been adding gear with switching power supplies to save heat and energy."

This has been accomplished in my system very effectively with 3 dedicated lines to my listening room and more recently the addition of a Shunyata Triton, 3 Typhons, and numerous PC's. Their Alpha and Sigma Digital PC's are highly effective in reducing noise generated internally in digital gear. Overall, the addition of these pieces created a not subtle, jaw dropping improvement in SQ. IMO, clean power is a fundamental requirement if you want the best possible performance from your existing gear. More effective than upgrading components.

[vonnie123]

Had mine running for 5 years next month.  32 panel Sunpower, 6.0kW.  my annual production is a bit over 10,000 kwatts annual.  Net out of pocket was $25k after tax credits and rebates.   My annual bill over the past five years has been around $200-250 for the year.  Was about $215 month average prior to install.

I use energy more freely with the solar in place.  I don't sweat much with the AC running.

[JLM]

I attended the Great Lakes Renewable Energy annual conference a couple of weeks ago and learned a bunch.  Signed up for apparently the last available round of EARP (experimental advanced renewable program) that pays $0.24/kWh for the power generated from residential solar/biofuel sources and it appears that a random drawing will be made as slightly more applied than is available.  Looking to add 18 panels that will also double as a deck shade.  Expected cost of lend-to framing and system about $11,000 after federal credit and estimated payback about 8 years here in Michigan. 

Also looking into an automatic whole house backup propane fueled generator as electrical dependency, our age, and grid unreliability are all going up.  Learned at the conference that generator lifespan are based on run time, not lifetime loading, so adding some whole house batteries will allow the generator to rest while the batteries carry load, which of course can be reduced under those conditions especially at night.  Too bad most of our outages occur during our cloudy winters and that grid-tied systems can't be used for backup anyway.

BTW the only problem we've had running under a 5 kW generator was with the microwave (apparently too sensitive to power aberrations).  TV, satellite boxes, router, computers, etc. all ran flawlessly.  However our 10 year old dryer bit the bullet soon after a 14 hour outage recently ($600 logic and relay boards needed to be replaced).  Outage was due to a fire at a power pole 4 miles away during a lightening storm and ran the generator once (to keep frig/freezer going).

Also have a dedicated room for office/audio.  The audio system has 3 dedicated 12 gauge/20 amp circuits each running to a cryo'd hospital grade duplex receptacle that are tied to a separate ground.

[Atlplasma]

I attended the Great Lakes Renewable Energy annual conference a couple of weeks ago and learned a bunch.  Signed up for apparently the last available round of EARP (experimental advanced renewable program) that pays $0.24/kWh for the power generated from residential solar/biofuel sources and it appears that a random drawing will be made as slightly more applied than is available.  Looking to add 18 panels that will also double as a deck shade.  Expected cost of lend-to framing and system about $11,000 after federal credit and estimated payback about 8 years here in Michigan. 

Also looking into an automatic whole house backup propane fueled generator as electrical dependency, our age, and grid unreliability are all going up.  Learned at the conference that generator lifespan are based on run time, not lifetime loading, so adding some whole house batteries will allow the generator to rest while the batteries carry load, which of course can be reduced under those conditions especially at night.  Too bad most of our outages occur during our cloudy winters and that grid-tied systems can't be used for backup anyway.

BTW the only problem we've had running under a 5 kW generator was with the microwave (apparently too sensitive to power aberrations).  TV, satellite boxes, router, computers, etc. all ran flawlessly.  However our 10 year old dryer bit the bullet soon after a 14 hour outage recently ($600 logic and relay boards needed to be replaced).  Outage was due to a fire at a power pole 4 miles away during a lightening storm and ran the generator once (to keep frig/freezer going).

Also have a dedicated room for office/audio.  The audio system has 3 dedicated 12 gauge/20 amp circuits each running to a cryo'd hospital grade duplex receptacle that are tied to a separate ground.

Have you considered Tesla's Powerwall for your battery backup?

[JLM]

Phase 1 is adding PV solar with provisions for the generator/battery to be added later on.  Trying to catch the EARP program and federal tax credit before they expire and generate savings to fund the generator/battery.  Battery technology is improving quickly with prices/performance improving, so not wanting to invest now beyond the concept.  I have briefly looked at the Powerwall, but that's all I've done (let someone else be on the bleeding edge).

[nickd]

While I envy you guys that are getting off grid, 

I would recommend a through investigation into battery packs containing lithium batteries. The disposal costs can be several thousand dollars for old batteries and hazardous material trucking. They are also very explosive under the right circumstances (fire & water). I can't even imagine the signs you will have to install on the house for the fire department and Knox key access etc. that will be necessary. In some County's in CA I believe you would also have to file as a hazardous material storage site and pay the yearly fees for regulation and inspection.

all that said, I still want one.

[thunderbrick]

While I envy you guys that are getting off grid, 

I would recommend a through investigation into battery packs containing lithium batteries. The disposal costs can be several thousand dollars for old batteries and hazardous material trucking. They are also very explosive under the right circumstances (fire & water). I can't even imagine the signs you will have to install on the house for the fire department and Knox key access etc. that will be necessary. In some County's in CA I believe you would also have to file as a hazardous material storage site and pay the yearly fees for regulation and inspection.

+1!  Don't ask me how I know….     

[Tyson]

Can someone go in to more detail around all the battery stuff?  I'm pretty sure we're gonna do solar this year, but aside from the panels I really don't have a plan or any knowledge about what else is involved.

[thunderbrick]

I'm not a fan of batteries, preferring grid-tie as the back-up.

Deep cycle marine/forklift batteries need maintenance and testing on occasion.  Fluid, specific gravity, voltage, etc.  PITA.

[macrojack]

Tyson - Electricity is momentary. Use it or lose it. Unless, that is, you have a way to store it until the time when it is not being produced like night, for instance, or when your panels are under 6 inches of snow. Batteries provide you with that kind of storage but they also add a lot to the price of your system. The up side to their use is independence from the electric company and its outages. If you have battery backup, you can set your house up for 12 volts or 24, I think, and avoid inverters. If you are grid-tied you lose your power the same as everyone else during outages. This is for safety purposes. They can't have your system back feeding the grid while repairmen are trying to fix it. Too dangerous.

So - I went the grid tie route, using Xcel Energy as my battery. You should try to get your system operational ASAP. There is a rebate program in force in Colorado but it is being phased out. If you get into what they call the Solar Rewards Program, they will kick back 2 cents for every KW you produce during any given month. I receive a check monthly. It doesn't come to a lot of money but it hastens the payback time. The program pays you for 10 years or more, as I recall.

Can you ask specific questions? I haven't any idea what you know. A quick phone call to the crack solar rewards team, can answer your questions and set you on the path to initiation. Here's the number:  800-824-1688   Call now!

[JLM]

For most, batteries is not a viable option to going off the grid.  Without reinventing your electrical use an off grid solar/battery system could cost 10 times what a net metering system would be that typically reduces utility charges by 80%.  Keep in mind that the solar system would have to be over sized to allow battery charging and whole house batteries would have to account for extended snow, rain, and cloudy weather events, so would cost several times more than the solar system itself.

If it's always sunny where you live, batteries could practically get you through nighttime to enable going off the grid.  But for 99% of us to go off the grid requires giving up electricity when sunlight runs out, a generator, batteries, and/or on-site hydrogen storage with fuel cells.  None of these options are very practical (running generators for extended hours is noisy/wasteful, batteries are very expensive, and fuel cells are still very expensive/short lived).  And sizing your solar system to cover peak loads requires a much bigger/more expensive system.

It's always best to plug the holes in the bucket first, so your demand and thus system can be minimized.  LCD lights, variable speed central fans, adding insulation, sealing air leaks, improving windows, more efficient heating/air conditioning equipment, occupancy sensors, even "right sizing" into a new energy efficient house can all help reduce demands.  A good energy audit (or building a new/smaller/more efficient house) is the logical place to start.

But adding batteries to a generator allows you to use excess power from the generator to charge the batteries.  When fully charged the generator can shut down, allowing the batteries to provide power while the generator rests (again generator lifetimes are based on how many hours they run, not how much overall power they've generated).  More batteries, longer continuous run times for both.  Whole house batteries can charged by utility power and be ready to take over at first loss of utility power, so that during short outages the generator may never start and there would not be the gap between beginning of the outage and the generator starting.  (Whole house generator manufacturers plan for a gap in case of short "blips" in utility power).

[thunderbrick]

It's always best to plug the holes in the bucket first, so your demand and thus system can be minimized.  LCD lights, variable speed central fans, adding insulation, sealing air leaks, improving windows, more efficient heating/air conditioning equipment, occupancy sensors, even "right sizing" into a new energy efficient house can all help reduce demands.  A good energy audit (or building a new/smaller/more efficient house) is the logical place to start.

That's right on the money, JLM!

[JLM]

Reviving an old thread to provide an update ...

My PV system is finally built, wired, and as of last Monday on the grid.  Under partially cloudy conditions it has generated 111 kWh the first week.  We average 510 kWh use per month, but under the incentive program we enlisted under we only need to produce 293 kWh to break even.  The utility will send one bill for both accounts.  We'll be responsible for paying the net every month if we owe, but they will send us a check for the balance when it exceeds $50.

The contractor is coming back tomorrow to install the wireless monitoring system that will provide more information and the building inspector needs to come by to approve the structure (we installed the panels over the deck via treated lumber posts/rafters to provide shade for the deck and avoid removal/reinstallation when it's time to re-shingle the roof).