[mresseguie]

Conundrum may not draw readers in, but $4000 certainly will! 

Okay, Here's my conundrum:

I have just been given an opportunity to purchase a barely used (in excellent condition - potentially like new) pair of Harbeth 30.1 speakers with stands AND a JL E112 12" subwoofer for $4000. They were purchased new in September of last year. The original owner upgraded to much more expensive speakers.

There is no doubt that this is an excellent price for these products. Hell, I could probably break even if I sold them in a couple years. The sub need not be used with the 30.1s, I could pair it with my LGKs (for instance) or add it to my HT system. I heard the 30.1s last year, so I already know I like their sound.

So what is my problem?

Well, I've been spending a lot of time here on AC and elsewhere researching factory direct speakers (you know - Salk, Selah, GR Research, Omega, Vapor, and various DIY kits). $4000 could buy me a LOT of speaker. Sure, I may not get a subwoofer this way, but I could get a 3-way, MTM, 2.5, etc. out of the deal that would give me bass down to/close to 20kHz.

I see advantages in going for the Harbeth/JL combo:
I like the sound
Famous brands, so eventual resale very easy
Bragging rights because of Harbeth name recognition
Seller will sell my ProAc D2s for me at going used price - no charge to me

Advantages for factory direct/DIY:
Greatest bang for buck
I can stipulate which drivers/crossover upgrade/veneer
May not need to spend $4k

Right off the bat I can think of Salk Silks, Selah Tempesta or Cima, Omega Alnico with Deep 12 sub, Zaph Audio ZRT 2.5-way Revelator, Testarossa by Jeff Bagby/Meniscus Audio.

Weigh in here, folks. Yay or nay? Slip into my shoes for a moment; be that bird (or little devil) on my shoulder. I want to get better speakers anyway. Pile in with your ideas!

I thank you.

Michael

[TF1216]

Ooh, i understand your conundrum. 

The plus to buying the Harbeth monitors is that you will get them SOON. 

If you don't purchase the Harbeth monitors, when will you buy new speakers?  I would suggest determining the most you want to spend on a speaker then start your shopping.  You could flip those speakers if the Audiogon prices are current.

Those wouldn't be the first monitors I purchased at $4k 

[ErikMi]

I'd pull the trigger... Unless you think you'll like the sound if one of the other speakers better. Of course when you tire of the others you'll pay

[Jon L]

I am usually in the high-resolution speaker camp, e.g. electrostats, Beryllium tweeters, etc.  However, one does not buy Harbeths or Spendors for the usual audiophile reasons IMO; you buy them because you enjoy their rich, saturated, home-cooked-meal type of satisfaction.  If you already have listened to them and enjoyed them, I would say do it. 

I would just make sure you have good amplification for their 85dB sensitivity.  Personally, I would listen to them without subs and sell the JL subs for profit 

[S Clark]

Not what I'd spend $4K on.  And I sorta like the Harbeth's I've heard. 

[OzarkTom]

How big is your room and the height of your ceiling?

[mresseguie]

My amp/preamp:

AVA 400R FET Valve amp 200+W/ch, AVA T8 tube preamp

Different rooms:
15' X 13' X 8.5' home office
15' X 17' X 9' master bdrm
15' X 29' X 16' cathedral ceiling family/HT room (combined with part of kitchen space), but these Harbeths aren't designed for HT.

Most of my music is Jazz, Classical, female vocals, cello, piano, string quartets, etc. I don't listen to much rock anymore - my ears can't take the beating as well anymore.

Um...I didn't ask, but it's possible I could buy the 30.1s only for approx. $3k.

It's still a deal. Future resale would be much easier for me if I ever tire of the sound.

Erikmi: Really good point on resale.

[Carl V]

Ooh, i understand your conundrum. 

The plus to buying the Harbeth monitors is that you will get them SOON. 

If you don't purchase the Harbeth monitors, when will you buy new speakers?  I would suggest determining the most you want to spend on a speaker then start your shopping.  You could flip those speakers if the Audiogon prices are current.

Those wouldn't be the first monitors I purchased at $4k 

Agree with most of this.


take an honest look a the man in the mirror.
Do you see  yourself as someone who is susceptible
to audiophile nervosa?  You should already know
about Brands & resale markets.

Where do you see yourself in two to five years?

Don't get sucked down that rabbit hole unless
you really want to! Selling/trading/exchanging
gear can be a PITA.

Good luck and that $4k price point is at a definte price to
performance knee.  ymmv. imho yadda

[srb]

Most of my music is Jazz, Classical, female vocals, cello, piano, string quartets, etc.

I have owned speakers with both the ScanSpeak Revelator tweeter and the Aurum Cantus G2 tweeter.  As my music is very similar to yours, I preferred the way the ribbon tweeter rendered the attack and trailing edges of those instruments.  I realize the midbass in a two-way contributes to that sound, but the Revelator dome was combined with a pair of Revelator woofers and the G2 ribbon was combined with a pair of Eton midbass, and even though I consider the Revelator midbass superior, the ribbon still won me over.

When I attended an extended audition with the RAAL ribbon (Salk HT2-TL) the delicacy and authenticity seemed to be up another notch.  I haven't auditioned the latest beryllium domes or the latest exotic neodymium powered silk domes, but you can only go with what you've heard, and somehow I feel the RAAL ribbon should be in my future speakers.

What I haven't read is any kind of comparison between the Salk Silk monitors and the Salk Supercharged Songtowers for exactly the same cost.  The extra 3dB of sensitivity, slightly lower bass response, ability to play a bit louder and not needing stands seems to point me toward the towers, but if there was simply more midrange magic in the monitors my mind could be changed.

Steve

[aldcoll]

The shipping will be cheap if you deliver 12 miles from your place

I was in the market for a sub  

I would prefer two matched.

I guess my thoughts are with the size of the rooms and will they work

[avta]

I can't give you a specific answer but I can suggest you take your time. If you feel pressured to buy then it's probably not the right time. See if you can listen to more speakers in that price range. Would you have bought speakers if these hadn't come up? I've had a few speakers and recently sold some Harbeth compact 7ES's. After I decided to change speakers I bought some Sonus Faber Venere 3's.( floorstanders ) They were $3500. I was impressed with their overall sound which I found more open and extended compared to the Harbeths. I had listened to some other similarly priced speakers but l preferred the SF's. I listened in a dealer's showroom not in my home so that is another variable to consider.

[newzooreview]

For another data point, I have the Harbeth 30.1 speakers and after moving through speakers every 2-3 years I no longer have an itch to buy different speakers. I moved from a pair of Omegas (big 8' Alnicos on low Skylan stands) to LSA monitors (briefly) to Salk HT1-TLs to Vapor Cirrus monitors (with all upgrades). I would not want any of them compared to my Harbeth's. The Harbeth's are more detailed and accurate and realistic sounding than any of them without any of the flaws that wore on me over time. It stands to reason considering that the Harbeth was designed with 100 times the acoustic engineering R&D funding than any of them. From the proprietary cone material to the resonance-cancelling cabinet design to the computer designed crossover hand-validated by years of A/B listening tests, the Harbeth's are a very refined design.

[roscoeiii]

Think it comes down to how much you like the Harbeth sound,  compared to other flavors of speakers. The genres you listen to are a good match to the Harbeth's strengths.

And yes Harbeth speakers have solid resale value but don't forget that you can get serious deals on used speakers in particular. I got  a full 7 channel Von Schweikert setup,  featuring VR-4s for less than that.  I also got used SP Tech Revelations for less than your price on the 30.1s.

[Vinnie R.]

I used to own the Harbeth 30.1s (now have 40.1's) - if you can get them for $3k, I would jump for it!
I also agree with the comment above about selling the sub - then it is like you got an even BETTER deal
for the 30.1s 

I see advantages in going for the Harbeth/JL combo:
I like the sound
Famous brands, so eventual resale very easy
Bragging rights because of Harbeth name recognition
Seller will sell my ProAc D2s for me at going used price - no charge to me

I see the only important one is: "I like the sound"

The least important one is:  "Bragging rights because of Harbeth name recognition"

Hope this helps,

Vinnie

[lowtech]

Harbeth's are like Merlin's without the magic.  However, both pretend to make music from a box.  Take that FWIW.   

[WGH]

I have heard the Harbeth speakers a few times at RMAF and they have always been pleasant. I don't remember if the 30.1 were shown but within the Harbeth family I'm sure the sound is more similar than different. I always find the Harbeth sound to be comfortable and just right in a button down English sort of way.

But I still prefer the Salk sound. The Salk HT2-TL's sound is row 10 at a concert. The RAAL tweeter sounds laid back at first but that is only because it's phenomenal clarity is rare in loudspeaker design. The Salk HT2-TL's also do loud without sounding loud. Bass is clean, punchy and tight down to the mid 30Hz range, I don't think the 30.1 can do that. And the AVA 400R FET Valve amp with Salk is a perfect match, the synergy is magical.

After all that, run and get the Harbeth's. You are in a win-win situation. The Harbeth's can easily be resold for what you are buying them for and you won't have any regrets wondering if you made a bad choice. The Salk's are always available if the Harbeth's don't work well in your room.

Wayne

[mresseguie]

My thanks to all who responded.

Three of you (I think) mentioned Salk HT1 or 2 TL speakers. Ya know, I've known about them since my first time on the Salk website, but I have never heard them. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've never heard any speaker using the Seas Excel mids. I can't even guess how they sound. I went to Axpona last year, so I got to hear Song Towers MTM (or were they supercharged??), SS8s, and the Exotica 3s. I love the E3s, but they're out of my league. Even after 1 year, I can't forget the E3 sound. Even the Exotica monitors are a stretch right now.

I have heard Revelator mids, and I know I like their sound. I suspect I'd like the Illuminator midwoofer sound. I heard 6 speakers with the RAAL tweeter (or similar) at Axpona. I don't know if the sound was too new to me, or if the rooms they were playing in were buggy, or what....but I was not thrilled by what I heard. My three favorite speakers at Axpona had dome tweeters. I'm not closed to RAAL-like tweeters, but I haven't had that "!!!" experience that many here have experienced. Hey, I'm still fairly new to this game.

Wayne (WGH),

I like your thinking. This opportunity is staring me in the face. The Salks (or Selahs, etc.) will still be there in a year or three. I will make back most or all of my investment in the 30.1s. My amp will happily power all of them.

Lowtech,

I've read gobs of reviews on Merlins, but I haven't actually heard them. Someday....

Vinnie,

I was just joshing about the bragging rights....I happily do that with all my speakers already! 

Roscoeii,

I've never heard Von Schweikert speakers either....so many I haven't heard yet. I always check our trading post, and Craiglist, often check local shops' used equipment, and occasionally Audiogon. I've grown to be wary of Agon. Always looking for a deal.

Newzoo,

That TWL loom you mentioned in PM - I have the 10+ PC, speaker cables, and RCAs. 

AVTA,

Oh, I know what you mean about the Sonus Fabers. I got to audition SF Olympica II (or III??) that were sublime, but a wee bit too expensive.

CarlV,

I'm already in that rabbit hole, but I've got tools to dig myself out or to create a floor (even if it's a temporary floor). As I discover ever better sounding speakers/DACs/etc., I hunger for more.....up...to...a...point. I'm not a super critical listener. I do not need the BEST sound. I'm happy with GOOD sound. I wonder what I'll think of this declaration in two years. 

This is such a fun hobby. There are so many really cool individuals to meet and share with. I'm glad I re-discovered it, and I glad I found AC. (Group hug!)

I'm going to borrow the 30.1s over the weekend to see how they fit. Will they block that worm hole? Stay tuned!

[JLM]

For another data point, I have the Harbeth 30.1 speakers and after moving through speakers every 2-3 years I no longer have an itch to buy different speakers. I moved from a pair of Omegas (big 8' Alnicos on low Skylan stands) to LSA monitors (briefly) to Salk HT1-TLs to Vapor Cirrus monitors (with all upgrades). I would not want any of them compared to my Harbeth's. The Harbeth's are more detailed and accurate and realistic sounding than any of them without any of the flaws that wore on me over time. It stands to reason considering that the Harbeth was designed with 100 times the acoustic engineering R&D funding than any of them. From the proprietary cone material to the resonance-cancelling cabinet design to the computer designed crossover hand-validated by years of A/B listening tests, the Harbeth's are a very refined design.

+1

Harbeth heralds from the BBC tradition, that I love and from which I moved from the big box scene to "true" stereo in 1977.  Seems like the 30.1 would be ideal in your office or bedroom based on room size, without a sub. 

With multiple rooms I'd recommend optimizing different rooms/systems to different types of listening (such as A/V, small ensemble, and large ensemble).  Define the task/need at hand, then find the best tool for the job.  Decide which type of listening you'd be using new speakers for.

Many of the other players mentioned in this thread are really good for A/V (making improved big box artificial "colorized" hi-fi sound) versus realistic reproduction of textures, tones, and images of un-amplified music that is the Harbeth wheelhouse.  So what'll it be, violence or violins, A/V or music application?

[sts9fan]

There is little risk as you could resell them rapidly for what you are going to pay. 

[rollo]

   Have you heard them ? Can you hear them in your system ?  Buying a speaker can be a lifetime purchase. Why ? Gret is great , good is good, that will never change. Thinking about resale while prudent should not be a major consideration you may never sell.
   Bragging rights are for Kids for goodness sakes. You need to find out if the Harbeth sounds with your gear first. Never buy a speaker no matter what they are without an audition.
   If that does not work out for you audition a pair of NOLA Vipers with Thunder subs and be a very happy camper. Not a dealer of NOLA



charles