[Early B.]

There's no need for Danny to jump on the Atmos bandwagon.  Why encourage him to produce ceiling speakers when he already stated that he's not a fan of them? Let him remain in his niche so he focus on releasing more DIY OB kits and designing crossovers.

[mlundy57]

From the reviews I've read of the two methods for the overhead sound with Atmos, ceiling mounted speakers or upfiring speakers on top of your floor speakers, ceiling mounted is the only one that really works.

Apparently, having speakers at normal heights pointed at the ceiling and relying on reflected sound off the ceiling to give the immersive effect is not working out so well.

[nickd]

I think would be looking more along the lines of a box shaped like a "Thiel Power Point 1.2" with GR Drivers and crossover. I don't think they need to play real loud up there so even a 3" full range driver may get it done?
However, Danny is supposed to be working on finishing the X-Otica.
Hope this new project does not interrupt the flow at GR.

Personally, I have found that if the side surround channels are mounted high enough, 7.1 can be quite satisfying at re-creating overhead sounds. I also have my 3 front channels mounted up in the wall behind a micro-perforated screen. The height really helps the "surround bubble effect".

The Stereo rig (although in the same room) is completely separate. Sources, pre, amps and OB towers to the sides of the screen and out a few feet. My family uses the receiver driven 7.1 system and  I use the turntable and the stereo rig. Everyone is happy.

I will leave Atmos for the early adopters.

[Danny Richie]

I have enough projects lined up for now....

[Hank]

gab wrote:

The link below is well worth watching for a better understanding of Atmos.

  Yes, Grimani's podcast was excellent.  He's a sharp guy and has a nice sense of humor.

mlundy57, I agree re speakers pointed at the ceiling.  When I first saw the Atmos info, I thought:  "There are different ceiling configurations, like cathedral, so I don't see such speakers, although the easiest to implement, as being universally effective.

Danny wrote:

I have enough projects lined up for now....

  In the back of my mind I was thinking this might be the reason for no current interest.  I agree - wait and see how soon the "bandwagon" heads down the street.  Let Atmos and DTS-X remastered movies hit the market, as well as new releases.  It might take a year for demand to materialize.

[Danny Richie]

The link below is well worth watching for a better understanding of Atmos.

I agree with Hank's comments that people will be upgrading their dedicated home theaters to incorporate immersive audio in the near future. It would be nice to see some GR Research options for doing that.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/1773370-acoustics-immersive-audio.html

I watched and listened to this a little bit ago as I was working at me desk.

Several things really hit me like a lead weight. I was really (REALLY) surprised at some aspects that were totally misunderstood regarding speakers. The gentleman being interviewed needs some practical experience. He was WAY off on some things.

He really doesn't understand off axis response. He seemed to have an impression that speakers sprayed in a direction that they face. He even thought that moving over one seat was going to cause a problem with a center channel that used a pair of 4" drivers on either side of a tweeter. As if that design would focus sound to the center. He then mentioned a drop in the off axis in the 2kHz to 3kHz range and that those ranges were critical for vocals. Someone needs to tell him that the vocal fundamental is in the 300Hz to 500Hz region.

And there was a huge misconception about bipolar speakers. He seems to think that they have a wider coverage area because the two tweeters can more evenly spray sound all around. The reality is that the two tweeters cancel each other out at the 90 degree axis and leave a huge hole in the response. It's actually a pretty big hole over a pretty wide area. I'd love to show this guy what the off axis and on axis patterns really are with those speakers. They are actually creating the problem that he thinks they solve.

Another big issue that I don't see the Atmos format even addressing is the bass response or sub-bass response. One of the biggest issues with home theater systems is how overloaded the room gets in the lower ranges. There was nothing even mentioned to address this issue. There was an example that he used showing subs in every corner of the room, but no mention of running back to front woofers out of phase to minimize room boom. They are likely not run that way at all. So rooms are loaded and overloaded with no regard for quality.

The whole thing just looked like an ill fated effort to match the intent of the movie mixers. One has to look at how many movies are even recorded that way and if it is worth the expense to recreate it (at this point anyway). The Bipolar speakers won't do what he thinks they are going to do, and neither are the ceiling speakers that allow moving and tilting to spray sound in a fixed direction. They just don't work that way.

He also misunderstands how drivers work that are facing up. He seems to think the are for reflecting sound only. He doesn't realize that the pattern is more omni than directional. They don't spray sound up.

Good grief! Can we gather these guys up for a class or something?

[bdp24]

And he's supposed to be an expert in his field? Here we go again; when mass-market consumers started buying Home Theatre "surround sound" systems, they spent their thousand bucks (or even less. $500?) on five crappy speakers and an even worse sub instead of on a halfway decent pair of stereo speakers (or a pair of mini-monitors and a sub). Now what.....even more crappy speakers, not to mention more channels in one of those horrid receivers most of those systems are powered by? What, two rear speakers aren't enough to make a movie enjoyable? Or two side and two rear? How many sound sources are required for a satisfying movie experience? I don't watch movies for the sound, and am not in the target audience for this kind of thing. I just want the dialogue to be intelligible, which a pair of good front speakers does just fine. Add all the speakers you want.....it's still just a movie!

[Hank]

The moderator should interview Danny so he could straighten things out.  Despite my rejection of the silly concept of an upward-facing driver beaming sound to a ceiling, to then be scattered correctly, I do think Atmos and X will be bought by lots of people.  Let's see how many movies are remastered and how many new movies are released with one or both of the "immersive" tracks.

[gab]

Another big issue that I don't see the Atmos format even addressing is the bass response or sub-bass response. One of the biggest issues with home theater systems is how overloaded the room gets in the lower ranges. There was nothing even mentioned to address this issue. There was an example that he used showing subs in every corner of the room, but no mention of running back to front woofers out of phase to minimize room boom. They are likely not run that way at all. So rooms are loaded and overloaded with no regard for quality.

Danny - here is a link to what he thinks about subwoofers in a home theatre:

http://www.residentialsystems.com/columns/0004/how-many-subwoofers-to-use-and-where-to-put-them/84476

and a link to his other articles here:

http://pmiltd.com/articles.html

gab

[mojave]

He then mentioned a drop in the off axis in the 2kHz to 3kHz range and that those ranges were critical for vocals. Someone needs to tell him that the vocal fundamental is in the 300Hz to 500Hz region.

He knows that the vocal fundamental is in that region. He also knows that is not the region that causes issues for understanding vocal speech.
Here are 4 areas of vocal speech:
1. Fundamentals: approximately 85Hz to 250Hz.
2. Vowels:  Vowels sounds contain the maximum energy and power of the voice, occurring between 350Hz and 2KHz.
3. Consonants:  Consonants occur between 1.5KHz and 4KHz.  They contain little energy but are essential to intelligibility.
4. Sibilance:  Male sibilance  occurs between 3-7KHz and female sibilance between 5-9KHz.

And there was a huge misconception about bipolar speakers. He seems to think that they have a wider coverage area because the two tweeters can more evenly spray sound all around. The reality is that the two tweeters cancel each other out at the 90 degree axis and leave a huge hole in the response. It's actually a pretty big hole over a pretty wide area. I'd love to show this guy what the off axis and on axis patterns really are with those speakers.

In actual room measurements, dipolar speakers do have wider coverage. The hole in the response is desired (by those that use them) to make sure the listeners are getting only reflections in this hole for more diffuse sound. I prefer direct radiators myself.

Another big issue that I don't see the Atmos format even addressing is the bass response or sub-bass response. One of the biggest issues with home theater systems is how overloaded the room gets in the lower ranges. There was nothing even mentioned to address this issue. There was an example that he used showing subs in every corner of the room, but no mention of running back to front woofers out of phase to minimize room boom. They are likely not run that way at all. So rooms are loaded and overloaded with no regard for quality.

A playback format has nothing to do with bass response. Why would he address it in this podcast? You can listen to Home Theater Geeks podcast 177 for his discussion of handling bass response. He also has many articles on line.

Good grief! Can we gather these guys up for a class or something?

He has a good understanding of acoustics and teaches others at CEDIA and various other venues.

Anthony Grimani has a bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of California at Davis.
His 25+ years of experience in the audio industry include executive positions at Dolby and Lucasfilm THX, and
have earned him the “50 Most Vital Influencers” award from CustomRetailer magazine as well as being inducted
as Fellow of the CEDIA trade association. In 2013, he was named by CEPro Magazine as one of the “Top 20 Most Influential People of the Past 20 Years.”

At Dolby, Anthony was intricately involved in the development of surround sound for consumer applications. During his nine-year tenure at THX, he managed the THX consumer licensing program and the technology development program, setting the direction for consumer and professional Audio/Video businesses. Anthony developed the Home THX program, the THX PM3 program, and invented the revolutionary Surround EX 6.1 channel audio format pioneered in Star Wars, the Phantom Menace.

Anthony is a frequent lecturer at industry conferences such as AES (Audio Engineering Society), and CEDIA
(Custom Electronics Design and Installation Association), earning the CEDIA Top Instructor award. He holds
six patents in the area of audio and acoustics, and is a frequent contributor to the industry’s most read and
respected trade magazines.

[bdp24]

I just read his thoughts on subs, including the number needed, where they should be located, the frequency at which to cross-over to them, etc. His views confirm it---what he values in sound is fundamentally different from what a perfectionist audiophile values in sound. Movie sound and music are two completely different animals, and to put together a system to do both requires compromising each for the other. Music means far too much to me to even consider doing that. Which is why I have two systems, one to provide sound for visual entertainment, the other purely for music. I sympathize with those who aren't able to do the same.

[Danny Richie]

He knows that the vocal fundamental is in that region. He also knows that is not the region that causes issues for understanding vocal speech.
Here are 4 areas of vocal speech:
1. Fundamentals: approximately 85Hz to 250Hz.
2. Vowels:  Vowels sounds contain the maximum energy and power of the voice, occurring between 350Hz and 2KHz.
3. Consonants:  Consonants occur between 1.5KHz and 4KHz.  They contain little energy but are essential to intelligibility.
4. Sibilance:  Male sibilance  occurs between 3-7KHz and female sibilance between 5-9KHz.

Even upper level harmonics in the vocal region are not that high. Just watch playback through an RTA. I have.

In actual room measurements, dipolar speakers do have wider coverage. The hole in the response is desired (by those that use them) to make sure the listeners are getting only reflections in this hole for more diffuse sound.

No, in actual room measurements there is no where in the room that you can take a measurement and get any resemblance of the input signal. And they do not have a wider coverage area. They don't even provide what one could call coverage. And the hole in the response is not only unpredictable from speaker to speaker but will vary at different points in the room.

It is not something that is being designed for by engineers mixing the sound tracks. And it is not used in theaters.

You can run your left and right main speakers out of phase from each other and get a diffuse sound as well, but it is not accurate.

A playback format has nothing to do with bass response. Why would he address it in this podcast? You can listen to Home Theater Geeks podcast 177 for his discussion of handling bass response. He also has many articles on line.
He has a good understanding of acoustics and teaches others at CEDIA and various other venues.

Yes, it is one of the single biggest issues to home theaters and the format does not address it and neither do most installers.

Anthony Grimani has a bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of California at Davis.
His 25+ years of experience in the audio industry include executive positions at Dolby and Lucasfilm THX, and
have earned him the “50 Most Vital Influencers” award from CustomRetailer magazine as well as being inducted
as Fellow of the CEDIA trade association. In 2013, he was named by CEPro Magazine as one of the “Top 20 Most Influential People of the Past 20 Years.”

At Dolby, Anthony was intricately involved in the development of surround sound for consumer applications. During his nine-year tenure at THX, he managed the THX consumer licensing program and the technology development program, setting the direction for consumer and professional Audio/Video businesses. Anthony developed the Home THX program, the THX PM3 program, and invented the revolutionary Surround EX 6.1 channel audio format pioneered in Star Wars, the Phantom Menace.

Anthony is a frequent lecturer at industry conferences such as AES (Audio Engineering Society), and CEDIA
(Custom Electronics Design and Installation Association), earning the CEDIA Top Instructor award. He holds
six patents in the area of audio and acoustics, and is a frequent contributor to the industry’s most read and
respected trade magazines.

And yet still lacks some basic understanding of loudspeaker design. Who is teaching these guys?