[abernardi]

Hi everyone, wow it's been a long time since I've been here, where have I been????? 

I'm a proud new owner of a Samsung PN64f8500, the last and maybe the best of the plasmas.  After a bit of binge watching I'm now sorting out the best way to integrate this into my system in the most efficient way possible, but most importantly, keeping the integrity of my stereo audiophile system. Here's my stereo setup:

Mac-mini running Audirvana to
Stello U3 (via USB) to
Audio-gd Ref. 7.1 DAC (via S/PDIF) to
Luminous Audio Axiom Signature passive volume control to
Marchand XM-9 active crossover to
two BEL1001 MkII amps to
two Avlar Prodigy speakers

I know, nice, right?  I don't want to screw this up, it's a beautiful sounding system.  So now I have this TV with all these wiz bang features that I'm not really all that interested in, but would like to use easily if possible.  I could see going multi-channel eventually, but I'm in no rush and am happy with stereo for now.  The biggest drawback to multi-channel to me is that i'd want 5 identical speakers and I don't have that kind of room if I keep the Avlars, which I'm keeping!

OK, here's what I've got so far with the video portion of the system:

Samsung PN64F8500
AT&T Uverse cable box and recorder
Monoprice HDMI switcher with opt and coax digital outs
I'll be adding a blu-ray player, probably an oppo 95 or 105 (anyone selling one?)
and using the Mac Mini for video server


I've got one HDMI cable and Ethernet cable going to the TV and one Toslink opt cable coming back from the TV into my DAC. This works well because the TV forces a stereo PCM signal through the Toslink.  I'm also feeding the DAC the coax digital (rca) from the HDMI switch, but so far it's not seeing it. I think I can force the switch to output PCM and that should fix that, either way it's probably redundant seeing I have the toslink from the TV.

But now it's already clunky:

First volume control.  The TV's toslink digital out has no volume control at all so I'm dependent on The Axiom passive volume control and it has no remote.   I'd like to find a way to control volume via a remote.

Second, the DAC.  There's no remote for the DAC either, so I have to manually switch inputs when I use the toslink, vs. the S/PDIF from the Stello.

Third, the Mac mini.  I have to change the audio output every time I want to use it for music or for video.  As you mac owners know, it's never a totally simple task.  Sometimes you have to go into the Audio MIDI setup, sometimes you have to restart, etc... it's not consistent. 

And then there's the question of how best to access content and control inputs in the most efficient way possible. I have one of those little Lenovo wireless multimedia remotes, but the keys are so small, it's really impossible to use, so I'm looking at full sized keyboards.

I want to be able to use the same controller, keyboard and mouse/trackpad to:
1 - Easily access my media library on my hard drives and media server.
2 - Use the Samsung as a monitor for the Mac Mini, surf the net, etc.
3 - Use the SMART apps (I know some won't accept keyboard entries).
4 - Use the AT&T Uverse options
5 - Use the Blu-ray player
6 - Use the HDMI switcher
7 - control audio patching and volume.

It seems obvious I should be getting into Harmony, I see they have a keyboard now. But I've not had much luck with Harmony products, they've been inconsistent. But that was a long time ago, maybe they're better now?

Samsung makes a keyboard that has it's SMART controller built into it, but I don't know if that will talk to the mac. I've heard it's not so great.

I do have an ipad I could use if there's something that would work with that, but I need some help thinking that through.

One idea I have is to get an Apple TV and dedicating the Mac-Mini to music only duties.  Anyone know much about Apple TV? 

I like the idea of keeping the Mac Mini just for audio but if I don't I know there are a lot of different media streamers. I've used PLEX in the past and XBMC. And while they're beautiful interfaces, I find it much faster just to go into the finder, find the file and drag it into VLC.

And finally it was suggested to me to just get a cheap AVR receiver instead of the HDMI switch.  That would solve a lot of problems but it would have to have a pristine analogue pass-through for the music.  Ideally, it would be able to take it's own volume control out completely, pass along the analogue stereo straight to the Axiom when playing music and then engage it's volume control for video. 

It still seems a clunky way to go, but I want it all, a convenient interface and keep the audio purity.  I don't know of a reasonably priced AVR that can claim an audiophile level preamp, is there?

I think that's about it. I'm probably forgetting something, but anyway, any thoughts or threads you can point me to? THANKS!!

[jarcher]

Some comments in no particular order based on personal experience:

- You don't really need 5 identical speakers for multichannel use, particularly if you're using a processor with digital equalization / room correction (e.g. Audyssey) which helps to balance the sound across the speakers and room.  At most concern yourself with the center channel, which would preferably be the same model or be a center channel from the same manufacturer with the same drivers.  But from experience w/ my Magnepan speakers 7 channel HT system, I can tell you that even their center channel (CC5) despite being made from the exact same material as the floor standers (1.7's) is noticeably not an exact timbre match.  Found the same to be true w/ other speaker lines as well. The surround speakers most definitely don't need to be the same - and in some cases depending on your goals (more direct vs more diffuse sound) you may go in a completely different direction (i.e. point source vs dipole / bipoie etc).

- The DAC may not be able to decode the digital signal from the switcher for the reason you suspect : i.e. it's Dolby Digital or some other multichannel signal your DAC can not decode.  If either the switcher or the source can be changed to 2 channel PCM, it should work.

- Remote Control : yes, the Logitech Harmony are the least expensive and are not that difficult to set up, but as you found being infrared it's easy for things to be cycled on / off wrong and things get out of sync.  You'll likely have to spend a lot more for something from say Control 4 with more robust functionality.  So think carefully about how much ease vs hassle of multiple remotes you're willing to deal with.

I'd recommend using a tablet / iPad to control the mac mini with either the free Remote app if you use iTunes, or else use something like the free VNC app to have full remote desktop control of the mac mini. I've tried using a rechargeable physical remote that is a gyroscopic mouse / keyboard and basic universal remote, but honestly operating the tiny keys was more of a hassle than using the iPad.

- HT / 2 Channel Stereo Integrating : I chased this holy grail and never found a way to do it well at reasonable cost.  There's a select few home theater preamp / processors I thought might be good enough for 2 channel music, but they are brutally expensive even used.  Even my relatively high end Marantz 7005 pre/pro is blown away as a preamp against a vintage Conrad Johnson PV10. 

So what did I do? Basically I run two parallel systems but share the same speakers, with separate speaker cables for each and switch between the HT amp and the 2 channel amp depending on whether I want to do HT or music.  It helps that the speaker cables have bananas for quick switching.  It's a 30 second hassle, but it's worth it. Don't introduce a cheap AVR receiver into your beloved two channel audio chain - you will not be happy.

For the moment if you're doing 2 channel only HT, I'd just plug the sources in to your existing rig as you have planned (i.e. via the DAC).  If you decide to do multichannel in the future, I'd get a refurbed Marantz receiver from Accessories4less and do the speaker cable switcheroo for the front 2 channels.  If you want more power for the front 2 channels, find a way to use the analog outputs from the receiver to the crossover.  If the crossover permits multiple inputs and has a switch, that would be the easiest.  Otherwise a high quality external switcher - or a cheap powerful external amp for at least the front two channels that require / benefit the most from greater power than most receivers offer. 

Hope that helps!

[abernardi]

Thanks jarcher, you really get the problem and your response is helping me clarify it all in my head.  Have you any experience with or insight on the NuForce MCP-18?  I stumbled across it in my search for an answer and have been reading some good things about it.  If you don't know it, it's a 7.1 channel preamp, all analogue, and it's supposed to be practically invisible, especially for the stereo setup, using a higher quality volume control for the front L and R speakers.  It has a good review from Absolute Sound, but after reading it I don't think the reviewer really seriously put it through the paces.

Concerning the three other speakers:  In my previous system 20 years ago (yikes  ) I had 5 M&K S1-B satellites and a couple of subwoofers and was spinning multi-channel SACD's and it seemed to me many of those mixes were using all 5 speakers at full range.  I could be wrong, but even some movies were benefiting from the full range surrounds.  Of course those satellites were crossing over at 125Hz, so they were hardly full range, but I'd rather not put subs back into the system and if I did, I'd have to have different EQ's for HT and for 2 channel.  I like the idea of two separate systems all together, but as I'm bi-amped I think that would be challenging. 

I think the NuForce might be a good starting point, it would give me remote volume control and easily switch between audio and video...

[jarcher]

I entertained the purist approach of using a higher quality analog multichannel preamp as well.  Aside from the Nuforce I also considered and somewhat prefer the Parasound Halo P7.  I also considered Conrad Johnson MET1 and McCormack MAP1 units (discontinued), though those are 5.1 channel. 

Ultimately I decided not to go that way because of the convenience of HDMI switching and none of those has digital room correction software (e.g. Audyssey), which I felt was important.  Now I'm not so sure, particularly if your room is decent and your primarily using just one source (e.g. a blu ray player).  So, I still kick around the idea from time, particularly with the Parasound unit. An Oppo 105 for example is likely to sound quite a bit better than the DAC / analog output of most mass market home theater receivers.

Obviously it would be nice to have the same full range speakers for all channels, but practical considerations usually dictate smaller speakers for the surrounds.  I'm not sure you can really get away with not using a sub for home theater.  Part of the fun is the big bang for the explosions, etc, and that's really best handled with subwoofers.

[youravhandyman]

Abernardi, I realize that you are hesitant to go with an AVR but they have several advantages.  They will work 2 channel until you decide on which speakers to go with so that will give you some time there.  Another big advantage is ARC.  ARC(Audio Return Channel) feeds audio back down the same HDMI that you run to the TV from the receiver allowing you to select the TV as a source and hear audio from the apps on the TV.  The HDMI switching advantage was mentioned by Jarcher and is also a big advantage.  A cheap AVR may not do what you are looking for but for those that have deep pockets, receiver options like the one from Bryston do exist.
On the remote scene, Jarcher mentioned using a tablet to control the Apple TV.  You could actually use apps to control the TV and the receiver though switching between all of those would be a nightmare.  Without actually having to go all the way up to a Control 4 type system you can use your tablet as a remote interfacing a networked controller and IR emitter in the equipment cabinet.  Most remote brands have such animals like URC, RTI, Pro Control and even Harmony. 

[abernardi]

Well, I impulsively jumped on one of the last two remaining NuForce MCE-18 preamps that Audio Advisor had.  They had sold two that day already, so I think they're going away.  They said they weren't getting any more in.  I figured for $499 it was worth the risk. So I'll start with that and see where I go. 

handyman, I have the toslink coming back from the TV to my DAC so I'm good for a 2 channel mixdown from whatever gets to the TV.

I'm looking at the Oppo 103 or 105 maybe with the Darbee, I haven't decided on that yet.  But it looks like these units can serve my purposes.  If I take the output from my HDMI switcher into the Oppo, then I think the Oppo can decode the surround info and that would feed the multi-channel inputs of the MCE-18.  And the Oppo would also feed the video to the TV.  That should handle DVD, the Mac-Mini (for video content) and cable.  Then my DAC would feed the 2 channel inputs of the MCE-18.  Does that make sense?

[jarcher]

I'd run both the cable box and the Mac mini direct into the  HDMI inputs on the Oppo  - no switcher necessary.

I would pony up for the darbee edition - I've demoed it and it's no gimmick. It really can improve the picture quality (of DVD / blu rays and the other devices you have input into it).

If you were going to use a receiver or pre-pro to do the decoding I'd say just the 103D.  But If your budget allows, I'd go for the 105D version as you will be getting full use out out the multichannel analog outputs of it with its superior ess sabre DACs and upgraded analog output stage.