[terry parr]

on various threads here on AC i've read where some people here on the board have chimed in at various times saying how much of a difference acoustic room treatments can make.  even though the subject of the thread may be how much of a difference changing out a certain component could make. 

from time to time, i've gone to different websites looking at the different offerings and trying to understand the science behind capturing and nullifying certain sound frequency waves (e.g:  certain absorption materials converting sound energy into heat?) 

anyway.  i don't think i'll ever get to the point where i really understand the science behind treating a room by introducing certain materials that effectively removes from your aural perception certain frequencies that are not wanted.

not too long ago, HERE, on this circle, someone was talking about the best treatment for a small room with reflective surfaces on all sides.  i have a small bedroom that i've turned into a dedicated listening space.  it's about 10' long, 12' wide and with a 10' ceiling.  and to make it more interesting (or, problematic as a listening space) the room includes a window which faces the street where traffic comes and goes out of the neighborhood).  the advice on this thread i was reading was that, generally, a small room such as this would benefit more from absorption, rather than diffusion.

i made the decision to go with 4 absorption panels (all of them 24" x 48" x 2" thick).  this doesn't sound like much.  but when my panels arrived this past wednesday i first propped two of the panels side-by-side up on a bookcase on the wall opposite my speakers.  then i put the other two panels in the middle of the two side walls.  (i've since moved the two that were on the side walls to about 1/3 of the way directly behind each speaker, so that about 2/3 of the panels are sticking out from the opposite sides of each speaker).  i'm noticing and enjoying a very nice difference in the sound of this room for the better.  this is the type of before-and-after difference that anyone would notice!

i remember thinking on wednesday when i was listening for the first time with the panels in the room that with the improved sound in the room now, it sounded like i had upgraded an important component. 

i've always known that this room needed treatment.  but i felt at a loss as to what specifically to do.  looking back on it now, i should have at least done something long ago.  (and if that didn't quite work, then adjust or change your methods and try something else). 

in the past, my answer to my music room that sounded terrible was to delve deeper into the world of headphone listening.  (which will certainly have its place with me.  on certain material you can't beat the immediacy that h/p listening can give you.  and with h/p's, you can crank it at 2:00 a.m. and not disturb anybody). 

but, the difference that these sound absorption panels has made on my added enjoyment of music over the last few days is on a level that i wouldn't have believed before.  i'm really enjoying loudspeaker listening, again.  for the first time in years. 

i once thought that "absorption" would remove some of the fullness of the sound (which you want to keep) while taking away the shrillness and those un-musical sounding high-pitched reflections, and un-defined low-end muddiness (which you want to be rid of).  i'm not sure how these panels work, but low-end reproduction is improved.  the lower registers of a piano or acoustic bass have more musical texture than they had before.  and the high-end sibilance is mostly gone.  these panels arn't  perfect, (they don't remove every bit of upper-register "bite" every single time you want them to, but this has more to do with how the music was  recorded and mixed and mastered in the first place).     

but, listening now with the panels in this room has made a VAST improvement. 

(i've even been listening to some warren bernhardt trio recordings from a few cd's from the early 80's tonight!)  yes, the panels even makes these early cd's listenable and enjoyable. 

thanks to everyone here who continue to share their experience and knowledge. 

right now, i'm at a place where i'm enjoying my music, rather than feeling frustrated that the last upgrade isn't quite scratching the itch.           

[mresseguie]

Thanks for sharing your experience. My home office is a huge challenge acoustically.  I've made progress with two homemade panels, yet more improvement is needed.  I must assemble three more special sized panels to place on top of fixed book shelves . You've given me confidence to forge ahead.

[maplegrovemusic]

Congrats . If i only new now years ago about how important the room is this hobby would not have been so frustrating along the way . The first dime i would spend if i were starting from scratch would be some room treatments , well second dime anyways .Speakers are the most important instrument in a hifi system .. Throwing money at expensive amps and pre's will not equal the money spent on the listening environment .

Do not stop there , try some diffusion too . You will not be disapointed .

[Tyson]

Terry, congrats!  Best thing you can do for any system is treat the room.  2nd best thing is get open baffle speakers

[optimationman]

Terry, welcome to real audio.  I agree that the most neglected component of most systems is the room itself.  It takes most of us a long time to get to that part of the system.  One of the nice things about it as you pointed out is that great improvement can be made with little money when compared to equipment changes.  Once you discover the benefits of addressing this arena, not only with the sound improve, but the realism of the presentation will follow.  The sound stage will come alive.  Of course, it will take a lot of trial and experimentation to get it set for your room and tastes.  I am still working on my 17 x 12 x 8 room with all the doors, windows and such.  Good luck.

[Rob Babcock]

Well said, Terry!  IMOHO room treatments are the single most important part of an audio system.   Given the choice I'd rather have a $5,000 system and $5,000^* worth of room treatments than a $25,000 system in an untreated room.

^* Note that if you DIY the costs can be much less for a given level of performance.

[Guy 13]

Hi all.
I agree with the above,
you need somekind of room threatment.
I don't have any other than drapes and furniture,
but I wish I could have some.




Guy 13 on planet Vietnam.

[jlawson1977]

Congratulations Terry!  I too have a small listening space (13 x 11 x 8 ) that with room treatments became a great space.  Whats really cool is that even my wife heard the difference in the room.  The really amazing part about it is after hearing the significant improvement in my space, she commented that the Family/HT room could use some treatments also 

[Hipper]

Hello Terry, as you can see we are all pleased that you have taken the plunge and discovered some benefits.

You may wish to do more?

Have you tried placing the panels in the corners behind each  speaker? Place them at a 45 degree angle across the corner and listen what happens. Try all four there, one on top of the other. I suspect you may reduce some problem bass so revealing more of the rest of the music. These panels will act as bass traps although not as effectively as proper, bigger traps.

As your room has a ten foot width AND a ten foot length you will get problems at around 56Hz and its multiples (56Hz has a wavelength of twenty feet). That frequency will probably be quite boomy. You may also have other boomy bass notes. These can be solved by bass traps placed in the various corners - both wall/wall, wall/ceiling and wall/floor corners will work but the usual first choice is the wall/wall corners behind the speakers. Bass traps make a remarkable difference, combined with speaker and listening position placement. You hear the bass of the music, not the room.

A second consideration is the window and the traffic you perhaps hear through it. I live on a busy High Street and have double glazing but I added a third layer of special glass deliberately for reducing the noise. It makes a considerable difference.

You are right about diffusion and small rooms. I believe a typical diffuser needs some eight feet between it and the listener for it to work properly.

GIK, who have a Circle as you've probably seen, do a free consultation service which I recommend. Of course they want you to buy their products but you are not obliged to.

[terry parr]

i'm convinced (hearing is believing) that anyone who listens to a fair amount of acoustic jazz, as i do, will definitely appreciate how much better an acoustic piano will sound in a room with sound treatment.  the transients won't "bite", and the lower-register frequencies of the left-hand side of the keyboard will sound richer and more believable.  (the tone and timbre of the instrument will sound more "true").

bass detail, articulation and overall quality of the acoustic bass in a jazz context sounds much improved. again, more "true." 

and last night i was listening to the cd by patrick williams for the music that was recorded for the mini-series "blonde"  (that was a tribute to marilyn monroe).  this recording is definitely "top-drawer."  the music scores, the playing and the recording itself.  top-notch in my opinion.  one of the things that really stood out last night as i was listening (in my now-treated room) was not only the sound quality was improved, but i was able to "separate" the different elements in this recording.  piano, bass, drums, strings, reed and wind instruments...all elements were now distinct, but yet coming together to form a whole, integrated, complete sound.  very enjoyable listen.

all of the comments to my original post (giving me more hints and ideas) were welcomed.  thanks for the encouraging comments.   and i'm sure they'll be more experimenting with sound treatment as time goes on.  it'll be interesting to really get the room more "fine-tuned", eventually.

but, at least for right now i feel i have a foundation established.

and to mresseguie: by all means, continue with your ideas!  i know now that treating a room is probably about the best return-on-investment that any of us can make, for improving our home-listening. 

           

[Bob in St. Louis]

Best thing you can do for any system is treat the room.  2nd best thing is get open baffle speakers

"Yes". This right here. This is a smart man. 

[terry parr]

hello, bob!  even though i may not be listening to "open baffle" speakers, (or, as what most people mean when they say "open baffle":             cone drivers mounted without a chamber),  i'm still not listening to "cones in a box," either.

i'm not listening to cones, at all.  but, i am sharing the dipole characteristic with the OB guys.

i'm listening to panels, bob.  magnepan MMG's.  (after auditioning a pair of magnepans at a dealer about an hour away, i found out that
this type of speaker may work in a small room, afterall).  i was surprised to find out that you can enjoy these speakers listening in a
"near-field" setup.  of course, the room that i have my audio gear setup in is small. (about 10 x 12).  so, it's near-field listening.  period.
whether i want it to be, or not. 

these speakers do sound very listenable, however, in this small space.   (which means  you have to almost be "sitting on top of them.")   
there's probably, five feet of distance between my ears and each speaker.  that's about it.

but, i'm not listening to cones inside an enclosure. 

after hearing the magnepans demo'd, i knew right then and there that i preferred a more detailed, more natural-sounding low-end, and that
coming back to the "boomy" bass of my "speakers-in-a-box" was all of a sudden unacceptable.

yes, i did give up some slam and impact by going with the panel speakers.  but, the more "truer-to-the-music" presentation that the panel
speakers give you, compared to what i had, was a trade-off worth making.     

[Bob in St. Louis]

No apologizes required!
Sounds like you're in the same game as me. My PC speakers are dipole panels, but not "OB", so I get your point.
But the room is as much a part of the equation as anything else. It took me a long time to discover that.

Rock on man. You're doing it right.  Maggies sound fantastic.

Bob

[terry parr]

this is my first introduction to the sound of the maggies, bob.  so far, i've been very pleased. 

however, the magnepan speakers that the dealer had set up in the listening room were (probably) 10 ft. tall, and they had the true
ribbon tweeters, (unlike the mmg's that i have,  which have the "quasi-ribbon" tweets). 

very nice sounding pair of speakers they had set up to listen to.  when i inquired about the price, i was told:  "oh, they're 6K."   

well, those particular ones were not, and are not in the cards.  i don't even know the exact model that i was listening to.  that's when they told me i could order a pair of mmg's from magnepan, which were much more affordable, and based on the music that i mainly listen to, the guys at the dealer told me i'd probably be pleased with them.  (the dealer didn't even have them for demo), but since they have a 60-day return option, i thought they'd be worth a shot.

and, i'm glad i did it.  they're keepers.     

[terry parr]

"But the room is as much a part of the equation as anything else. It took me a long time to discover that."




me and you both, bob.   i wish i had started experimenting along these lines years ago.   

 


 

[SteveFord]

That sounds like 3.7s or 3.7i's to me. 
Not quite ten foot tall, though, although at first site they're rather imposing until you see their big brothers.

[terry parr]

i'm really not sure, steve.  but they were impressive-sounding speakers.  it was the "realism" that i remember as being my first impression about them.  it seemed as though nothing within the sound frequency range  was over-emphasized on purpose in the design of the speaker.   they were a very "natural" sounding speaker.  (musically).     

(and until i heard them up-close like i did, i had no idea that you could sit so close to speakers of this type).

that's what got me thinking that a pair of magnepans might work in my small listening space.

[jk@home]

Congrats on discovering the biggest upgrade any audiophile can do to their system! I ran (stock and then modified) MMGs in a slightly less than 12 x 15 room for a long time, towards the end added room treatments, both absorption and diffusion, for a big improvement in the sound.

Problem with Maggies is you get a big upgrade in sound quality by moving up to the larger, more expensive models. Which will be harder to fit in that room.

So enjoy what you have, and when it comes time to upgrade, also think about trying some small high quality monitors ( I went with KEF LS50s plus stereo subs). If you want to stick with Maggies, then maybe the Mini-Mags will work out nicely.

 

[steve in jersey]

You can get the "Larger" Maggies to work (to a degree) in a smaller than optimal room if you're willing to sacrifice "room space" for
more distance between the room's boundaries & speaker placement. Additionally a "Nearfield" listening position helps the situation a bit also.

I think that getting your room to work "with" whatever speaker design you've decided to use,goes a long way toward how much
"Room Treatment" will be needed to affect sound changes

[kevin360]

Awesome! Welcome to Maggies and to room treatments. My listening room is well treated and I really dig my 3.7s in that room. I have a pair of MMGs in a bedroom (that's still a bedroom) and I don't get any less enjoyment that system. MMGs are incredible speakers. Some of us have gone a little nutty with our MMGs - great speakers for modification projects.