Preamp Suggestions.

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kingdeezie

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Preamp Suggestions.
« on: 30 Nov 2014, 04:45 am »
So, I have a pair of Manley Neo Classic 250s that I got for a steal used, right before the price increase. They are about 10 years old now, but they still work faithfully (knock on wood) everyday. Bottom line here is I don't see myself replacing them anytime soon.

http://manley.com/n250.php

Above is the website link, that gives you all of the information about the amps.

The problem is with my current preamp, which is BRMs old Response Audio Bellamax, I have absolutely zero volume control. There is a digital volume control that goes from 0-60.

With digital, depending on the game, song, or movie, 1 is pretty loud, and 10 is about as loud as I would want ever. This makes late night gaming, music listening, or movie watching impossible.

For analog, sometimes I get the volume to 30 (presumably half way), and that is usually pretty loud.

At this point, with new speakers coming my way in a month and a half or so, I want to start looking for something with a little bit more volume control, so I can better control the torture I am going to be placing my system under. I am moving from a pair of line sources, which tend to soak up power, and can take some volume abuse, to a pair of smaller point sources, that I fear could get pushed to the brink with my current gain structure, especially when new.   

Does anyone have any suggestions for a preamp given the Neo Classic 250 specs? I know someone will recommend the Manley Neo Classic 300B, but I ruled that out because several reviews have said that it has a tendency to mask detail, not something I want.

I would really like something that would allow me good usage of the volume knob.

Any suggestions would be lovely. For budget, lets say keep it under 10K.

Thanks for reading!


opnly bafld

Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #1 on: 30 Nov 2014, 01:38 pm »
Have you asked Bill if he can lower the gain of your preamp?

Maritan

Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #2 on: 30 Nov 2014, 02:28 pm »
Have you thought of (heard of?) Dehavilland Mercury? Kara Chaffee makes good products that have been universally praised. And, shockingly, she is very accessible. Has answered every idiotic email of mine.

I have the Dehavilland UltraVerve 3, which is a step down from the Mercury, and it really sings with my VTL (which has similar circuitry to Manley).

SteveFord

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #3 on: 30 Nov 2014, 02:33 pm »
There was a nice deHavilland Ultravalve 3 on audiogon the other day. 

avahifi

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #4 on: 30 Nov 2014, 03:13 pm »
I think you meant Ultraverve Steve, not Ultravalve.

The Ultravalve is our award winning pure vacuum tube power amplifier.

Frank Van Alstine

Quiet Earth

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #5 on: 30 Nov 2014, 03:24 pm »
King,

Try a 12AU7 in place of the 12AT7 in your power amplifier. Send Manley an email first. Ask them if it is OK to sub a 12AU7 to reduce the amplifier's gain. This is something that you should know about anyway since you're keeping the amp long term.

Definitely ask the preamp manufacturer if there is a simple way to reduce the gain in the preamp. I couldn't find any info about that preamp and I have never heard of a digital volume control in an analog preamp. What does that even mean? I guess you need to find out if your preamp has more gain than typical, or if you just have too much system gain in general. If you do get a new preamp and it has the same amount of gain as the old one, then you are right back where you started.

Your power amp has less sensitivity on the balanced inputs, so that is something to consider. A preamp with a transformer balanced output might be a nice upgrade for you.

What are your source components?

SteveFord

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #6 on: 30 Nov 2014, 03:27 pm »
Sorry, I did mean Ultraverve.  I like mine well enough even if I can't remember what it's called!

kingdeezie

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #7 on: 30 Nov 2014, 04:15 pm »
Have you thought of (heard of?) Dehavilland Mercury? Kara Chaffee makes good products that have been universally praised. And, shockingly, she is very accessible. Has answered every idiotic email of mine.

I have the Dehavilland UltraVerve 3, which is a step down from the Mercury, and it really sings with my VTL (which has similar circuitry to Manley).

The mercury looks very cool, but the problem is that a lot of the reviews read that it softens the transients, and rounds out the sound. This is not something I think I am looking for. I like fast transients, and while I do not enjoy my sound to be hard or sharp, I wouldn't want too much dulling of those transients.

King,

Try a 12AU7 in place of the 12AT7 in your power amplifier. Send Manley an email first. Ask them if it is OK to sub a 12AU7 to reduce the amplifier's gain. This is something that you should know about anyway since you're keeping the amp long term.

Definitely ask the preamp manufacturer if there is a simple way to reduce the gain in the preamp. I couldn't find any info about that preamp and I have never heard of a digital volume control in an analog preamp. What does that even mean? I guess you need to find out if your preamp has more gain than typical, or if you just have too much system gain in general. If you do get a new preamp and it has the same amount of gain as the old one, then you are right back where you started.

Your power amp has less sensitivity on the balanced inputs, so that is something to consider. A preamp with a transformer balanced output might be a nice upgrade for you.

What are your source components?


I am not sure the design of the preamp to be honest. When I first got the preamp, Bill helped me adjust the gain. You change the gain by adjusting these little switches on the back of the volume control unit. The problem is, now, I do not know which way to go, or what switches need to be flipped to lower the gain.

I emailed Bill several times in the last year, and have never heard back from him. Not sure if my emails go straight to junk mail, or he isn't sure how to change the gain anymore. I got the impression that this volume control was something specifically for BRM, as he was unfamiliar with it at the time, and had to use the instruction manual to tell me how to adjust.

His shop was flooded horribly several years ago, and I assume the instruction manual was lost.

My source components right now are a Meitner MA-1 for digital, and a VPI Classic/Dynavector 17D3/Pass Labs XP15 for analog. 

kingdeezie

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #8 on: 30 Nov 2014, 05:07 pm »
Both of the Manley preamp offerings are 12DBs of gain.

It would be safe to assume that 12DB should be what I am aiming for correct, since, I would assume that Manley would want their preamps and amps to work together fairly well?

avta

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #9 on: 30 Nov 2014, 07:51 pm »
if you would consider ss preamps, which I think you should, there would be a number of choices in your price range. I recently bought a Jeff Rowland Capri S2 pre and am very happy with it. I'm sure if you look in The Absolute Sound and/or Stereophile you will get some good ideas along with the suggestions here.

Wasatch

Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #10 on: 30 Nov 2014, 08:57 pm »
Look into the Manley Steelhead or Jumbo Shrimp.

richidoo

Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #11 on: 30 Nov 2014, 09:20 pm »
When I used Snappers I auditioned Shrimp a couple times. I loved everything about it and wanted to buy it, but for the sound...   It was always too dull for me, which was strange because it had the same input/driver circuit as the Snappers which were very clear and alive. Since then, Jumbo Shrimp has replaced the Shrimp, and it added another active stage to power the volume control load (or something like that,)  but I have never been able to listen to one of those. Someone on the web wrote that it noticeably cleared up the Shrimp sound. White follower makes 50ohm Zo   :thumb:  Maybe that's what was slow. The snapper driver tubes didn't need to be that low impedance to drive the outputs. You could email EveAnna to ask if the Jumbo is quicker than Shrimp, but reply may take a while. http://www.manley.com/contact.php#eveanna

I heard the 300B preamp with Mahis once at a show, it was dense and warm but detail and speed were still pretty good.
I also used to have an early model Manley 300SEPP amp, it also was very alive and fast, when good tubes were used.

Cary SLP-05 is very detailed, with rich 6SN7 sound, fully balanced.

Audio Research Reference Series are great sounding preamps, Ref3 and later are faster and clearer than Ref1 which is a bit sweet. There is a new AR preamp coming soon, called GS Preamp (G series,) sounded very nice, very detailed at a recent store demo, with even more of that AR sunny disposition that lights up all kinds of music.

I stupidly sold my Snappers because the awesome Groove Tubes E34Ls tubes made by JJ went sour, so Manley gave up on them, switched to EH 6CA7s, but they were too boring and smeared for me. Curious what tubes you use in your Neo250s?

Wasatch

Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #12 on: 30 Nov 2014, 09:24 pm »
Nicer tubes in the Manley gear does change things alot.

Big Red Machine

Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #13 on: 30 Nov 2014, 09:29 pm »

Any suggestions would be lovely. For budget, lets say keep it under 10K.

Thanks for reading!

I can set you up with a Dude for way less than 10k!  And dual volume knobs to boot!

lestuan

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Re: Preamp Suggestions.
« Reply #14 on: 6 Dec 2014, 05:55 pm »
When I used Snappers I auditioned Shrimp a couple times. I loved everything about it and wanted to buy it, but for the sound...   It was always too dull for me, which was strange because it had the same input/driver circuit as the Snappers which were very clear and alive. Since then, Jumbo Shrimp has replaced the Shrimp, and it added another active stage to power the volume control load (or something like that,)  but I have never been able to listen to one of those. Someone on the web wrote that it noticeably cleared up the Shrimp sound. White follower makes 50ohm Zo   :thumb:  Maybe that's what was slow. The snapper driver tubes didn't need to be that low impedance to drive the outputs. You could email EveAnna to ask if the Jumbo is quicker than Shrimp, but reply may take a while. http://www.manley.com/contact.php#eveanna

I heard the 300B preamp with Mahis once at a show, it was dense and warm but detail and speed were still pretty good.
I also used to have an early model Manley 300SEPP amp, it also was very alive and fast, when good tubes were used.

Cary SLP-05 is very detailed, with rich 6SN7 sound, fully balanced.

Audio Research Reference Series are great sounding preamps, Ref3 and later are faster and clearer than Ref1 which is a bit sweet. There is a new AR preamp coming soon, called GS Preamp (G series,) sounded very nice, very detailed at a recent store demo, with even more of that AR sunny disposition that lights up all kinds of music.

I stupidly sold my Snappers because the awesome Groove Tubes E34Ls tubes made by JJ went sour, so Manley gave up on them, switched to EH 6CA7s, but they were too boring and smeared for me. Curious what tubes you use in your Neo250s?

Between the SPL-05 and Ref 3, which one is better, please share your idea on that. Thank you.