Phase Inverter device

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nathanm

Phase Inverter device
« on: 12 Sep 2004, 11:19 pm »
I am not 100% clear on what this device does.  Couldn't a similar hookup scheme be created by wiring up some inverted-polarity cables in the manner shown in the diagram using an existing preamp?



I assume the answer is "no" and that there is more to the box than that, but I was just curious about what it actually does.  The concept is appealing because I have two stereo amps which could be used in the bridged fashion.

avanut

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Phase Inverter device
« Reply #1 on: 16 Sep 2004, 12:46 am »
While I am not an electronics guru, :?  I do have a pair of ears that responds well to great sound. I have an AVA Omega Star and a T7 (both ec) preamp with built in phase inverters and if I am not mistaken it will increase your amps output by approximatley 33%. I run 2 Hafler XL600 amps through my B&W 801 S3 speakers and while bridged (my favorite) there is a tremendous amount of GREAT sound, sometimes I will run them bi-amped and to my ears seems to help the bottom end. Lastly since I can not tell what it does, I can tell you, you would not regret having one, from my point of ears :)

avahifi

Phase Inverter Operation
« Reply #2 on: 16 Sep 2004, 01:11 pm »
The phase inverter is a very fast active unity gain circuit that inverts the phase of the output signal (turns it upside down).  If you connect to a stereo power amp with one channel seeing the normal phase, and the other channel seeing the inverted phase, and take the outputs (speaker connections) from the hot on one channel and the hot on the other channel (ground connections on the amplifier not used) then this essentially sums the voltage swing of the two channels.  If you had a (for example) 200 watt per channel stereo amplifier, swinging plus and minus 60 volts, then summing the outputs would yield a plus and minus 120 volts (in theory) in the mono bridged mode, yielding over 800 watts.  Things don't work quite this way because the power amp power supply will likely sag, but in general you can assume a three times stereo power rating in the bridged mono configuration.  The connections cannot be used with some amplifiers that do not have a common ground connection (they may be making high power by already having four small amplifier channels inside already bridged for two higher power channels).  In addition, in the bridged mode the outputs of the amplifier sees the speaker load at half its normal impedance (8 ohm speaker looks like 4 ohms, 4 ohm speaker looks like 2 ohms, and so on) so bridged operation is not recommended for inefficient low impedance speakers.  This is also true with vacuum tube amplifiers, because as the load impedance is not matched to the speaker output terminal of the same impedance, the amplifier power is drastically cut.  With an 8 ohm speaker you can connect to the 4 ohm taps and get much more useful power but with a 4 ohm speaker you would need a non-existant 2 ohm tap, and the impedance mismatch will cut the power to the speaker in half, nullifying the effect of running bridged mode in the first place.

You cannot reverse the phase of a preamp signal just by swapping the interconnect cable connections, that simply ties the signal to ground, result, no signal at all.  You must have an active inverter signal to do this.

AVA phase inverters are either free standing units, or built into the preamplifier as an option.  They are not built into the power amplifiers.

One musical issue with a bridge circuit is that it must have a very wide bandwidth to eliminate the phase lag through the active bridge circuits.  With most inverter circuits, the phase lag results in a late inverted signal out, and when the signals are summed at the amplifier, the result is a waveform with a huge amount of crossover distortion, much like a Class B amplifier.  You get a lot more power, but not clean power.

Note that the phase inverter can also be used for providing a balanced line signal as it does have a plus output, minus output, and common ground.  All that is necessary is to wire the preamp or inverter box end with two RCA jacks per channel.  We do not have enough demand for this to justify providing a three pin connector on our inverter or preamp chassis, everyone would have to pay extra, and few want or need this function.

Frank Van Alstiine

nathanm

Phase Inverter device
« Reply #3 on: 16 Sep 2004, 04:34 pm »
Thank you, that is exactly what I wanted to know! :thumb:

HChi

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Phase Inverter device
« Reply #4 on: 15 Nov 2004, 04:27 am »
Frank,
Could you discuss more how the phase inverter can be used to convert single-ended signal to balanced one?   I have a balanced amp and single-endend preamp. I am using the Cardas converter now.  How will the inverter improve from what I am using now? I am also looking into Rane BB22, which uses a passive transformer.   Since there is another piece in the signal chain, I am also wondering how much will the inverter affect the playback quality and dynamic.  Thanks.

skrivis

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Re: Phase Inverter Operation
« Reply #5 on: 25 Mar 2005, 08:06 pm »
Quote from: avahifi
The phase inverter is a very fast active unity gain circuit that inverts the phase of the output signal (turns it upside down).  If you connect to a stereo power amp with one channel seeing the normal phase, and the other channel seeing the inverted phase, and take the outputs (speaker connections) from the hot on one channel and the hot on the other channel (ground connections on the amplifier not used) then this essentially sums the voltage swing of the two channels.  If you had a (for example) 200 watt p ...


Another useful way to hook up an inverter is to invert one channel on a stereo amp and hook up the speaker leads also reversed on that channel. Bass signals are often more or less mono, so a big positive swing on one channel will be a big negative swing on the other. You get more out of your power supply than if both channels saw a big swing in the same direction.

skrivis

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Phase Inverter device
« Reply #6 on: 25 Mar 2005, 08:24 pm »
Quote from: HChi
Frank,
Could you discuss more how the phase inverter can be used to convert single-ended signal to balanced one?   I have a balanced amp and single-endend preamp. I am using the Cardas converter now.  How will the inverter improve from what I am using now? I am also looking into Rane BB22, which uses a passive transformer.   Since there is another piece in the signal chain, I am also wondering how much will the inverter affect the playback quality and dynamic.  Thanks.


If you look at the diagram, there's a regular output, an inverted output, and both share a common ground. So when the regular output is positive, the inverted output is negative. The ground stays the same. Your balanced amp is looking for +, -. and ground. You just need to make up a cable that goes from dual RCA to XLR, or add an XLR jack to the inverter, or add 2 RCA jacks on the amp. (I prefer Neutrik for XLR connectors over the original Cannon-style.)

There's an IEC standard for XLR pinouts, but not everyone follows it. You'll need to find out what you amp has and design your cables or whatever accordingly.

I don't know anything about the Cardas convertor, so can't comment.

A transformer could be good, if it's well-designed. It isn't as noisy as active circuits, but has a typically more limited bandpass.

I used both in the recording studio. A cheap transformer was often better than a cheap active device, but a good active device was better than a good transformer.

Note that Rane makes Pro Audio gear, so it may well be 600 Ohm. That might or might not work out well with your balanced amp.

Personally, I'd probably choose the AVA inverter, but I used to have an AVA preamp with one that worked nicely, so I'm biased. :)

Toka

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Re: Phase Inverter device
« Reply #7 on: 1 Sep 2006, 08:31 pm »
Needed to dredge this up for a question...


I'll freely admit to only semi-partially understanding the inner-workings of a phase inverter...my question is, when using two amps with it (say, an Ultra EC pre, 2 550EXR's, and the Ultra bridge), is the end result a 'non common ground' amp? The Polk SDA line I enjoy so much will go into defcon-5 if one is used (Polk offers an in-line interface that will allow one, but it limits bandwidth, so that isn't an option). Now, if that is the case, can one connect the two amps via the unused negative terminals to overcome this situation? Or does that defeat the purpose of the inverter in the first place?  :scratch:

avahifi

Re: Phase Inverter device
« Reply #8 on: 1 Sep 2006, 09:28 pm »
Does your Polk speakers have an active component?  Built in woofer amp or electronic crossover?  That might be the reason it expects only a single ended signal in.  Let me know and maybe a link to the speaker and I will investigate further.

Frank Van Alstine

Toka

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Re: Phase Inverter device
« Reply #9 on: 5 Sep 2006, 02:49 pm »
Frank, the Polk SDA's don't have an active component, however, they do utilize crosstalk cancellation via the crossovers (done passively as far as I know). Similar to the Carver Sonic Hologram but a much better implementation in my opinion. The speakers are connected to eachother (in addition to standard amp hookups) which might be the reason...in any event, here are links to the product description as well as the manual (note that I have an earlier/smaller model than these, but these are what I'll be ending up with):

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/srs12tl/

http://www.polksda.com/pdfs/SDASRS1-2.pdf


The 2nd link has much more technical info...

Thanks for taking a look at it!  :thumb:

avahifi

Re: Phase Inverter device
« Reply #10 on: 5 Sep 2006, 03:32 pm »
Yup, Polk is correct, you cannot use these speakers with amplifiers in the bridged mono mode because that mode does not permit a common ground connection that the Polk wiring requires.  Note that Polk does have a separate device available that will allow this operation.

However, Polk claims they are an "efficient system" (no numbers given in the .pdf file) and a 6 ohm load, so there is no reason in the world why one of our main power amplifiers (OmegaStar or Fet Valve) would not run them full range as loudly and cleanly as they can safely go.  All our amplifiers are common ground and are compatible with the Polks, except when used with our external phase inverter bridge.

Frank Van Alstine

Toka

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Re: Phase Inverter device
« Reply #11 on: 5 Sep 2006, 07:02 pm »
Cool, that settles it! Thank you very much.  8)

Toka

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Re: Phase Inverter device
« Reply #12 on: 26 Oct 2006, 10:09 pm »
Yet even more questions...what sort of gains (bother in power and in crosstalk reduction) can one expect when using the bridge with just one amp? Would it be similar to gains found with conventional (horizontal) biamping?

Steve Eddy

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Re: Phase Inverter Operation
« Reply #13 on: 27 Oct 2006, 04:43 am »
You cannot reverse the phase of a preamp signal just by swapping the interconnect cable connections, that simply ties the signal to ground, result, no signal at all.  You must have an active inverter signal to do this.

You don't need to have an active circuit to do that. It can be done quite effectively and purely passively using a transformer.



se


avahifi

Re: Phase Inverter device
« Reply #14 on: 27 Oct 2006, 03:59 pm »
Using one stereo amp and the AVA phase inverter (inverted input to one channel put back into alignment by reversing the speaker connections to one channel) puts the two amp channels out of phase with each other and reduces common mode crosstalk and power supply demands on common high power signals.  This is most helpful the less capabile the amp's power supply design is.  It may make a large improvement or none at all depending upon the amplifier.  It is essentially a waste of money with an AVA amplifier.

Frank Van Alstine