SS8 Positioning...A question for Jim Salk and the rest of the bunch

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Beatlebum

Jim,


When you go to an audio show and set up the SS8's in whatever room you end up in, what speaker position do you typically start with? And then how and what position increments do you tweak accordingly from there?

How do the rest of you have your SS8's positioned? What kind of SS8 set-up have you tried and what were the results?

Speaker positioning/setup is a topic I feel like I can never learn enough about.

My SS8's are set up 8' apart C-C, 3' from the sidewalls, about 18"from the wall behind them. My listening position is about 10'-6" from the front plane of the speakers and I have them toed in towards my listening position so that the speakers are firing just outside of my shoulders. This setup has resulted in good bass response, seems to pressurize the room pretty well and an overall balanced presentation. If I pull the speakers further out I do lose some of the deepest bass but I gain midrange clarity and treble extension and a sense that I'm closer or further into the music. Maybe a touch more 3D sense also.

Can't really decide which I prefer. Wondering what the rest of you are experiencing?

Big Red Machine

Leave the width spacing and try sitting 9 feet tweeter to ears with the speakers only toed in about 3 to 5 degrees.  I have used this spacing for years now and find it optimal.  I cannot live with the speakers aiming at me.  Blows the whole soundstage thing in my experience.

What is at first reflection points on the sidewalls, absorption or diffusion?

Beatlebum

Left speaker has Expedit full of records  :D and the right speaker is actually about 4'+ from sidewall which is just drywall, no diffusion or absorption.

BRM, what's your thoughts on distance from wall behind the speakers?

Big Red Machine

The closer you get, the more boost in bass you get, which is not the clean bass coming from the cones themselves directly at you.  With my setup I am about 28 inches to the wall behind.  Not much more but it may make a big difference.  Why not bring them out more and leave your seat where it is and you might hit the dimensions I suggest?  8 feet apart, 9 feet to your ears with very little toe in.  Your soundstage should get wider.

jtwrace

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Get some measuring equipment and do it right.  You will know what is best. 

yetis

Have you tried open or closed rear baffle? I assume that close to the wall, it would be better closed, but far from the wall, open?

Beatlebum

BRM,

I will do this hopefully after work today. I did some experimenting with positioning before but I think the SS8's have broken in even more since then so things may have changed.

Yetis,

I have the baffles open with about 3 fists full of the polyfoam that Jim supplies, stuffed in the baffle.

Hopefully Jim will still offer his thoughts here as well.

fsimms

I have SoundScape 10s. With them, they do sound best pulled into the room a few feet.  I think 3 feet from the front of the speaker to the back wall is about minimum unless you have heavy treatment behind them.  As BRM said the bass becomes louder but muddier the closer it gets to the wall.  The midrange also suffers closer than 3 feet from the back wall unless you have very heavy room treatments directly behind the speaker.


Bob

jsalk

This type of question is so room dependant, it is hard to offer specifics.  But in general, I like to start with the speakers about 8' apart and the listening position about 8' from the plane of the speakers.  BRM suggests 9' and that would be just fine.

The speakers have excellent off-axis response and need no toe-in.  But if you toe them in slightly, imaging will improve slightly.  Continue to toe them in and the soundstage will begin to collapse.  Toe-in is basically a trade-off between a larger soundstage and more precise imaging.  Each person will find his own optimum setting in this regard.

In regard to location with respect to room boundaries, there are two things to consider.  If you get too close to the rear wall, the bass will tend to get more "boomy."  Pull them out more, and the bass will be more accurate.  At 18", you should be OK, but you might try pulling them out a little more and see what you think.

The second issue with placement close to room boundaries is impacted by the nature of human hearing.  When sound leaves a speaker, it propagates in all directions.   Some of this sound will reflect off of room boundaries (rear wall, side walls, ceiling and floor) and will be directed toward the listening position.  This reflected sound will arrive later than the sound coming directly from the speakers.

If the time differential between the direct and reflected sound is long, your sense of hearing will interpret the reflected sound as room reverb.  If the time differential is short, your hearing will interpret it as coming from the source.  In this case, the image is "smeared" since the reflections are not in phase with the direct sound. 

Obviously, the farther speakers are from the room boundaries, the later these reflected sounds will arrive at the listening position.  It has been estimated that any reflection off of a surface 4' from the speaker will be interpreted as room reverb.  Unfortunately, in many (if not most) cases, there is no possibility of positioning speakers this far from room boundaries.

I should point out here that there isn't much any speaker designer can do to deal with this situation.

Fortunately, there is a simple solution - room treatments.  If you can install acoustic panels at the first reflection points, they will absorb these problematic reflections effectively killing these early reflections.

How do you know where these first reflection points are?  Easy.  (The angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection.)  While seated in the listening position, have someone slide a mirror along the wall surface of interest.  When you can see the speaker in the mirror, that is the point at which reflected sound will be directed toward the listening position.  An acoustic panel in this location will help kill the reflection and (dramatically in some cases) improve sound quality.

Acoustic panels are often a WAF issue.  Some companies like GIK have tried to address this by offering designs that appear to be paintings or photographs.  Some companies may even offer the opportunity to use your own photos on the acoustic panels. 

Acoustic room treatments are often the lowest cost, highest return items you will have at your disposal in terms of increasing sound quality. And they are often the only solution available to deal with early reflections (second and third reflections are not an issue because the time differential is great enough so that your hearing will interpret them as room reverb).

I hope this helps.

- Jim
« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2014, 06:21 pm by jsalk »

Beatlebum

Good stuff Jim (and everyone as well)!

Thanks for the info and comments.

SCompRacer

GIK also offers Guilford of Maine fabrics in a multitude of colors. The wife chose Silver Papier for my Tri Traps and panels.

strat95

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After spending much time one weekend trying different speaker positions and getting frustrated I searched online and found the room setup recommended by Cardas.  I'm happy with the results.  Please note the measurements are more geared to a dedicated room as the speakers will be almost 1/2 the room width from the back wall and over 1/4 the room width from side walls.

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php

http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.php

Beatlebum

So I got home from work last nite and tried the speakers further out in the room as BRM and Jim suggested. My SS8's are still at 8' C-C but now I've got them 28" from the back of the speaker to the wall behind and I toed them in 5 degrees (3/8") so I've basically now have an equilateral triangle speaker to speaker to listening chair. At first I seemed to be really close to the SS8's but after sitting down and listening I definitely gained some clarity and mid to upper bass definition. I sense a slight loss of the very lowest bass but overall I'm pleased but I'll continue to listen and experiment.

I might also try replacing the Cardas jumpers that Jim provides with some Nordost jumpers. Anyone with thoughts on jumpers versus biwiring?

Beatlebum

I purchased and installed some Nordost Norse Series jumpers in the traditional arrangement and they have made a very noticeable improvement in clarity and dynamics over the Cardas copper blade jumpers that came with my SS8's.


Don480

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I have SoundScape 10s. With them, they do sound best pulled into the room a few feet.  I think 3 feet from the front of the speaker to the back wall is about minimum unless you have heavy treatment behind them.  As BRM said the bass becomes louder but muddier the closer it gets to the wall.  The midrange also suffers closer than 3 feet from the back wall unless you have very heavy room treatments directly behind the speaker.


Bob

Hi Rob, I have some GiK Monster bass traps mounted behind but above my current speakers (HT2-TL).  Actually, when I spoke to Bryan at GIK, he wanted me to place the bass traps as high as possible for my room.  Anyways, I don't have the space to pull my speakers three feet but should I drop my acoustic panels lower, directly behind my speakers?  I do have to say when I place them higher, the bass gets tighter but the highs gets more nasty and untamed.  Almost sounds a little shriveled if that makes any sense.  Anyways, I have on order a pair of SS8 that should will be replacing my HT2-TLs.  Thanks!

Saturn94

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This type of question is so room dependant, it is hard to offer specifics.  But in general, I like to start with the speakers about 8' apart and the listening position about 8' from the plane of the speakers.  BRM suggests 9' and that would be just fine.

The speakers have excellent off-axis response and need no toe-in.  But if you toe them in slightly, imaging will improve slightly.  Continue to toe them in and the soundstage will begin to collapse.  Toe-in is basically a trade-off between a larger soundstage and more precise imaging.  Each person will find his own optimum setting in this regard.

In regard to location with respect to room boundaries, there are two things to consider.  If you get too close to the rear wall, the bass will tend to get more "boomy."  Pull them out more, and the bass will be more accurate.  At 18", you should be OK, but you might try pulling them out a little more and see what you think.

The second issue with placement close to room boundaries is impacted by the nature of human hearing.  When sound leaves a speaker, it propagates in all directions.   Some of this sound will reflect off of room boundaries (rear wall, side walls, ceiling and floor) and will be directed toward the listening position.  This reflected sound will arrive later than the sound coming directly from the speakers.

If the time differential between the direct and reflected sound is long, your sense of hearing will interpret the reflected sound as room reverb.  If the time differential is short, your hearing will interpret it as coming from the source.  In this case, the image is "smeared" since the reflections are not in phase with the direct sound. 

Obviously, the farther speakers are from the room boundaries, the later these reflected sounds will arrive at the listening position.  It has been estimated that any reflection off of a surface 4' from the speaker will be interpreted as room reverb.  Unfortunately, in many (if not most) cases, there is no possibility of positioning speakers this far from room boundaries.

I should point out here that there isn't much any speaker designer can do to deal with this situation.

Fortunately, there is a simple solution - room treatments.  If you can install acoustic panels at the first reflection points, they will absorb these problematic reflections effectively killing these early reflections.

How do you know where these first reflection points are?  Easy.  (The angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection.)  While seated in the listening position, have someone slide a mirror along the wall surface of interest.  When you can see the speaker in the mirror, that is the point at which reflected sound will be directed toward the listening position.  An acoustic panel in this location will help kill the reflection and (dramatically in some cases) improve sound quality.

Acoustic panels are often a WAF issue.  Some companies like GIK have tried to address this by offering designs that appear to be paintings or photographs.  Some companies may even offer the opportunity to use your own photos on the acoustic panels. 

Acoustic room treatments are often the lowest cost, highest return items you will have at your disposal in terms of increasing sound quality. And they are often the only solution available to deal with early reflections (second and third reflections are not an issue because the time differential is great enough so that your hearing will interpret them as room reverb).

I hope this helps.

- Jim

You mentioned there's not much any speaker designer can do about this.  Do controlled directivity designs not address this, at least to some extent?

timind

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What are the room dimensions?
Maybe not practical but I recently became a convert to a diagonal speaker setup. The soundstage depth is amazing in this configuration. Worth a try if your room allows.

audiocrazy

My room is 16 x 12 so i don't have enough width. I've to use room treatments to tame down reflections and has worked great in my setup. My room is heavily treated with bass traps & diffusers all around.
 
SS8's are about 8' apart, 2' from back wall & 18" and 12" from side wall. I've placed bass trap on one of the side wall since they are so close to room boundary.
Toe-in is about 5 to 8 degrees. I tried more toe-in but the sound stage collapsed.
This has given be the best soundstage and bass clarity.