[geofstro]

I think when it comes to determining value for money it would be a good idea for us to take the costs of mods into consideration.

Afterall, how many of us are likely to leave these amps in stock form?

Whether we carry out mods ourselves or have someone do it for us, the costs of mods can add up. Nevertheless, if a fully modded Teac, Panny, JVC or whatever can compete side by side with a 'high-end' digital amp from a company such as Tact or Bel Canto, the end result will still be really good value for money.

A modded amp also goes some way to answering that psychological need to know you have something special.

geoff

[Red Dragon Audio]

A6M-ZERO

 You last post was very well thought out and written in a coherent manner.   GOOD POST!

 

[Ears]

While my two 45's are off being modded, I only have my Sim i-5 which has been modded whith Jensens,Blackgates and Caddocks ect.

I miss a lot of things that the stock bi amped 45's do that the modded I-5 can't touch.

Hows that for value

BTW... no need for treble to be turned down with my speakers, unless of course the recording itself is bright sounding.

[slow_poke]

Just bought a cheapie koss ks4190 htib. It was only $170 and it's got a TI purepath digital amp. I guess it needs burn-in.

[windwaves]

Ears,
I have read many places that digital amps typically produce very little heat.  I have also read of exceptions though (like the JVC apparently).  Could you comment on how hot if at all the panny's run ?

I want to replace my NAD 763, too big and too hot for my cabinet and I was thinking a digital amp could be the ideal solution....

thx

[SWG255]

I have a Carver Zr-1600 modified by Nathan at 8th Nerve, and for the money I believe it is excellent. I may consider upgrading it with mods from RAM or similar mod'er.

However, I wanted to jump into this thread because I think these digital amps open the door to the true future of high-end audio. They allow the amplifier to become totally integrated with the speaker system, and also reduce the number of "steps" the signal needs to pass through from a digital source to that loudspeaker. I believe some very excellent high-end sound will be available someday, I hope soon, by having a digital front-end which feeds loudspeakers at "digital" line level where the built-in digital amps will convert the signal and drive the speakers  without passive crossovers, and with tailored response, damping or any other possible permutations of the signal intended to bring out the best from the speakers' transducers in the listening room.

Much is often said about the improved dynamics and detail of active loudspeakers. Often though these designs are limited by space required for the built-in amps, the heat they generate, and the higher cost of the active speaker system vs. the passive one. Active monitors are common in recording and mastering studios and becoming more common in live music reproduction. I believe the advantages of digital amplification are exactly those which will spark a renaissaunce in active loudspeakers for audiophiles, with advantages borne of keeping the signal in the digital domain for as long as possible and tailoring that signal for best performance in the listening room.

I don't know whether this will come to pass soon enough for me to be a purchaser of the technology, but it sure promises to be a fun musical ride when it does come to pass.

[mcgsxr]

Geofstro points out something quite valid - how much does one have to invest in digital amps, modding included, to generate REALLY impressive sound.

Well, if you have read the thread in Critics Circle, a few fellow Circle friends had a get together, and put two modded Carver Pro amps, against an ARC tube amp.  I was impressed that the Carvers held their own, and wanted more info, so I asked for a price comparison.  Here is the skinny.

"A stock Carver ZR-1600 amplifier on the used market ranges from about $400.00 to $800.00. New is from about $900.00 to $1100.00. The RAM mod is currently $1600.00 and the EA mod is $1500.00. The ARC VT200 ranges from about $3500.00 to $7000.00 used. New is from about $9000 to $12,000." was the response.

So, we have two digital amps, each street priced around US$1000 new, and bearing around US$1500 of mods, by a couple of respected places.  They hold their own, admittedly in very different ways, against a tube amp that runs somewhere around US$10,000.

Extrapolating out of that, it is clear that, in some ways, a modded digital amp punches around 400% above the cost of comparable tube gear.

Now, this is simply one instance, and I am sure that different configurations and modifications will yield different results, but it is a starting point.

In my case, an amp that MSRP'ed out at around US$300 (before being dramatically discounted to US$99 I admit) that ousted my 10 year companion Sugden, that originally MSRP's in the US$1000 range.

I will leave Wayne to comment on the cost of the mods that he will offer to the Teac, but I sold my Sugden on the basis of the stock Teac sound - to me, it is that good.  In fact, my best friend who originally jumped at the opportunity to buy that Sugden, ended up backing out, after listening to the Teac.  He is waiting in the wings, to hear the Bolder unit, when it returns, so he can plan his system out.

All in all, there are some great sounds available at previously laughable prices.

SWG255 points out something excellent - will manufacturers adopt the small, cheap, cool running, excellent sounding amps for use in active speakers?  I would give them a listen certainly.

Mark in Canada

[Ears]

Ears,
I have read many places that digital amps typically produce very little heat.  I have also read of exceptions though (like the JVC apparently).  Could you comment on how hot if at all the panny's run ?

I want to replace my NAD 763, too big and too hot for my cabinet and I was thinking a digital amp could be the ideal solution....

thx

From my experience whith  a few digital receivers, the Panys run cool to barely warm, the Kenwood is about the same and the JVC and Harmon Kardon are both fairly hot running.

[AphileEarlyAdopter]

After I got my Blue Circle Music Ring MR1200 I had not listened to my AudioRefinement Complete Int. Amp. So I connected it last weekend, taking the Panny XR50 out. Within a few hours, I disconnected the Audiorefinement and switched to the Panny. I think I like the seperation, quietness, clarity and dynamics of the Panny. Ofcourse, midrange on the ARC was very good, smooth and liquid. With the Panny, the vocals took a few steps behind. I suspect the Panny is more true to the recording. With the Panny, I can play different recordings and get the intended effect of that recording.
The XR50 runs a little bit more than warm.  I will upgrade to the XR70 which supposedly has biamping features and see how good that is.

[Bingo]

Tis a strange new time in audio.  I used to work in a high end audio store where bigger bucks often meant better sound.  I sense a death rattle for expensive electronics, which may be related to that nifty little invention, the chip amp.  "Bang for the buck" is taking on an all new dimension. There doen't seem to be such dramatic price/performance leaps in transducer technology, as of yet.  Maybe it's time to start unloading all of my boat anchor equipment for that new, all-in-one Dixie Cup digital technology? Are there any watchdogs out there checking out all of those reciever/dvd/cd combos that are using the T-amp technology? It should would be a breath of fresh air to find a high end sounding unit and not have to deal with all the innerconnects and thier two cents worth of signal manipulation.  Viva inexpensive high end audio!

[JCC]

I was one of the first into this approach when I purchased a Carver ZR500. Interestingly enough, one of my Carver ZR1600's has very little Carver left. Almost everything around the Tripath has been replaced. Some of the sound that you get blazes a new trail - unlike old digital or tubes. Different, but very good.

This can approach can go a long ways. I wonder what the next improvement will bring.

Existing high dollar amplification will eventually lose its value, but it seems to be taking much longer than I thought. Maybe in two or three years.

[tex-amp]

My feeling is once the digitals really catch on you will see $5K digital amps from the audiophile brands.  If they can sell ICs, wire, and power cords for big $$$ they can do the same with digital amps.

[zane9]

Existing high dollar amplification will eventually lose its value, but it seems to be taking much longer than I thought. Maybe in two or three years.

Interesting post, and I'm curious what you mean by "lose its value"? Do you mean its financial value, it's role in the audio chain? Given the globalization of audio equipment design/build and production, we are already familiar with  high-quality amplification products coming onto the market at a very competitive price point. Should be an interesting next-few-years!

J.

[JCC]

Good question - I think that the answer is both financial value and the role in the audio chain. Obviously it could provide downward pressure on equipment value. As a matter of fact, the trend is already in motion.

If it becomes generally recognized as a superior technology it will make a huge impact on older technologies in the audio chain.

While I think that the new technology provides a significant advance in audio quality, not everyone agrees. Some still prefer the sound that they are used to. It well could catch on in pro-audio quicker because the requirement is to compare to a live performance. We audiophiles seldom compare our equipment to a live performance. Instead our comparison is to other audio gear. This allows a lot of room for personal taste.

[zane9]

While I think that the new technology provides a significant advance in audio quality, not everyone agrees. Some still prefer the sound that they are used to. I ...

And we get to one of the main issues in audiophile-land! The age-old divide between audio gear as an end in itself, and audio gear as a means to an end. Personally I always aspire to gear which gives me the most immersive music experience possible. If JVC can help me achieve  that goal at $400 for digital, then I'll be lining up at the checkout counter.

J.

[sleepkyng]

Does anyone really think that digital amps will replace tubes?

I love my teac tripath, it costs 5 times less than my preamp!

does the digital amp have a signature sound? can we even claim this at this stage in the game?

praise be to digital amps for providing another choice.

there is a certain aesthetic quality to hi fi, not just snobbish notoriety. I love my tripath but i'd love to have a really beautiful setup with glowing tubes, cherry finished speakers etc etc.

the hi fi guys that spend the big bucks are aware of this

oh well, i'm currently blasting the hell out of Cold Cold Ground!

[Bingo]

It sounds like others hear the hyper buck death rattle, too.  I've been into audio since the 60's and being a musician has made it bittersweet.  Getting a pile of audio gear to sound like a live performance was the grail and it usually took about two seconds to hear if a system wasn't cutting it. I never could afford the top shelf gear but I always had fun trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  There will always be those who can't buy enough of the latest and greatest (and most expensive) but the esoteric audio industy can't live on that alone.  Hype sells like snake oil and if you cleverly market a meter of cable for ten grand, someone with more bucks than brains will buy it.  Those who survive on audio snob appeal won't know what to do when a plug n' play discount store system blows the doors off their Fort Knox system.  So is there a group of audiophile bargain hunters keeping track of the odd ball sleeper systems that utilizes the new Dixie Cup digital technology? I can still remeber when I got my hands on a new HK 430 and thought it was too good to be true.
High end audio doesn't have to mean expensive audio.

[zane9]

 Getting a pile of audio gear to sound like a live performance was the grail and it usually took about two seconds to hear if a system wasn't cutting it. I never could afford the top shelf gear but I always had fun trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Sounds familiar! I'm still on that quest for the grail. The cost of top shelf gear has just kept rising over the years and at the same time it's still possible to get the best gear one can budget for, especially if you luck into a dealer who can provide the best at each price point.

But I think we have to avoid making too many artificial divisions among the people who buy audio gear. There will always be people buying spectacularly priced gear just to make a statement; others who buy HTIB and never give it a second thought. But in between those opposite ends is a whole range of people making buying decisions for a lot of different reasons.

J.

[geofstro]

Bingo wrote

Those who survive on audio snob appeal won't know what to do when a plug n' play discount store system blows the doors off their Fort Knox system

I get your point; but I don't think it's going to be that simple for discount stores to put together a system that "blows the doors" off a high-end system.

I think what we're coming down to here is that high-end was never supposed to be about high cost, boutique, luxury gear; but rather was meant to be about the art of carefully matching components to create the most realistic, natural sound as possible within in the environment where the listening will take place.

Increasingly the high-end has gone in the boutique mentality direction. To address that problem, firstly a bunch of guys got together with Horns and SET's to get the high-end back on track. Now the arrival of these low cost digital amps has meant more people can join in.

It does remain an art though, and I'm hoping this new technology will cause more people to focus on that aspect and not be distracted by the gloss and style.

I'm not sure if the best of these Digital amps, like the TEAC really have a signature sound, in the sense that Tubes, SET's, SS do. Maybe it's too early for us to really identify that sound, if it exists.

Perhaps they are coming closer than we've ever got to the ideal of a 'straight wire with gain'. Something which just lets the music through.

geoff

[Bingo]

Don't get me wrong, geofstro.
Audio, today, seems to be going through a bit of a rebirth. I remember, in the old days, when it was really a challenge putting together a budget priced system for a customer. They had to rely heavily on your experience with a lot of different gear and the synergy of those pieces. You tried to keep them from listening to the expensive high end room because  you knew it would often leave them disappointed with the gear within their budget. The current performance gap between low priced and high priced gear has significantly narrowed. Not that there weren't some good old inexpensive components that worked well together, but it is now so much easier to achieve high perfomance with fewer dollars... so many more good sounding options. A lot of newcomers to audio don't seem to see the need for mortgaging their home to get a system that, to them, doesn't sound that much better. The audio buck is about the only dollar that is growing stronger. It's still fun!