[Vedder323]

Hey folks,

Ron here from New Record Day. Found this site pop up on my Facebook feed and caught my eye...  looks pretty cool? Anyone have feedback or input on how something like this might work with the LGKs and such?

https://vibefree.com/

Thanks!

[srb]

It would seem to me that allowing the speaker to free float would also allow some amount of mechanical energy to move the speaker cabinet instead of transferring all of the energy to moving the driver diaphragms.

It's true that many microphones are mounted in elastic suspension systems, but the forces involved are minute compared to the forces within a loudly played speaker.

It's doubtful I would buy these to try them or DIY something similar, but if anyone buys and tries them I would be more than happy to read about their experience.

Steve

[bdp24]

I subscribe to the theory that a speaker enclosure, like the plinth of a suspended-subchassis turntable, should be firmly anchored (coupled) to Earth. When a cone diaphragm moves, it does so with all of it's mass and energy moving in opposition to the driver's motor, and therefore to the enclosure it is attached to via it's frame (to which the motor is also attached as securely as possible). That's how it makes sound! Any movement of the motor, frame, and enclosure in reaction to the motion of the diaphragm results in either lost information, never to be recovered, or added information, undesirable in a loudspeaker of course. The people at Herbie's products subscribe to a different theory, and they have "Footers" that allow a tiny amount of enclosure movement (decoupling) when they are placed under a loudspeaker. They claim that the decoupling afforded by their Footers does not result in lost information, while allowing for the absorption of resonances in the speaker enclosure and/or surface it is placed on. Does the Vibefree allow the enclosure to swing in the breeze (VERY decoupled!)? I hope not! I would say that the more the mass of a loudspeaker's enclosure and driver's motor and frame, and the less energy it's cone expends (it's travel) and mass it contains, the more suited to the Vibefree will it be.

[corndog71]

I prefer the isoacoustics stands as they don't involve anything other than setting the speaker on top and aiming.  They're less expensive too.

[Danny Richie]

Allowing the speaker to swing and counter the force of the woofer with a swinging motion really eats up bass response.

[Herbie]

Herbie's Audio Lab isolation/decoupling products are not intended to allow cabinet movement or vibrations. They're designed and intended to hold the cabinet more still and vibration-free, by absorbing vibration and blocking the transfer of vibration and feedback from one surface to another. Holding the cabinet and especially the speaker baffle as firmly and motionless as possible is the goal. Regardless of "theory" involved, these products work very effectively and efficiently. The most frequent comments we get from loudspeaker and subwoofer customers is that the isolation products bring out a better-defined bass. You'll usually get a highly linear and deeply extending bass with general improvements throughout the audio spectrum.

Steve Herbelin
Herbie's Audio Lab

[Danny Richie]

Your products look good Steve, but...

Herbie's Audio Lab isolation/decoupling products are not intended to allow cabinet movement or vibrations. They're designed and intended to hold the cabinet more still and vibration-free,

what you are describing is coupling not de-coupling. To hold a speaker still you couple it to a solid non-moving surface like the floor. 

Holding the cabinet and especially the speaker baffle as firmly and motionless as possible is the goal.

Yep, I'm with you. And using an spike with a variation of densities can have benefits too, but it is still a coupling device. 

[Herbie]

To hold a speaker still you couple it to a solid non-moving surface like the floor.

That's a great idea if there were such a thing as a vibration-free floor. Please Danny, I don't wish to parse definitions and explanations again. This has all been covered quite thoroughly in a previous thread (re: Herbie Talk audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128065.20 reply #39 and others).

I have no hands-on experience with Vibefree stands, so cannot attest to their effectiveness. Seems like they might work fairly well with some very small speakers. Though okay for discos and such, hanging speakers from a rope, chain & hook, or a swing usually will not bring out the loudspeakers' best inherent potential.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[Danny Richie]

I know, I know, but typically the most vibration free surface in the room is a concrete floor. And it's not the floor that vibrates that you have to separate the speaker from. It is the speaker that vibrates and the solid floor that helps hold it still.

[Herbie]

Yes, and the solid floor reverberates micro-vibrations right back up the spikes the way they came, often causing glare, harshness and coloration in the music. I believe it's usually best to decouple this interface while coupling the one to the other.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[mlundy57]

If someone is interested in doing an experiment it would be easy enough to mock up a pair of these for next to nothing. A 2x4 for the sides and tops, a 2x6 or 2x8 for the bottoms, a few screws, 4 S-hooks, some nylon webbing, a needle and some thread. That out to about do it.   

Certainly nothing you'd want in your living room but adequate enough to decide if you like the outcome or not.

[Danny Richie]

Yes, and the solid floor reverberates micro-vibrations right back up the spikes the way they came, often causing glare, harshness and coloration in the music. I believe it's usually best to decouple this interface while coupling the one to the other.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

Do you realize how much SPL and specifically low frequency SPL it takes to cause even a little movement of a concrete floor? And even if you could cause a concrete floor to vibrate any at all it will pale in comparison to the forces exerted on the cabinets of the speakers that are generating that force.

And the only way you will de-couple a speaker from the floor is if it is not making direct contact with the floor. Hang it from the ceiling and it won't be coupled to the floor.

Steve, you have nice products. And your floor spikes work because you are keeping the speaker from moving from its own force by coupling it to the floor.

[Herbie]

Do you realize how much SPL and specifically low frequency SPL it takes to cause even a little movement of a concrete floor?

Sure, Danny. It's mostly very high-frequency, acute micro-vibrations that cause a lot of the glare and distortion, and can even cause dis-linearity in lower frequencies. All concrete floors are not created equal, but most readily transmit and reverberate these acute micro-vibrations and it doesn't require much vibrational amplitude. These vibrations travel and spread readily through rigid materials, including concrete floors which are concrete-and-steel structures. Spiked loudspeaker-generated floorborne vibrations can also infiltrate the audio rack and cause sonic anomalies in rack components.

Maybe you're right that our loudspeaker products work strictly by coupling to the floor, or that floorborne reverberations are inconsequential; then it's just a potential bonus that they reduce or eliminate speaker-generated floorborne micro-vibrations. Regardless, they do work. We have thousands of customers who have replaced conventional spikes with Herbie's Audio Lab products for improved sonic benefits. Hundreds have given comment and testimonial about the sonic improvements over ordinary spikes--very few but virtually zippo the other-way-around. 

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[DaveC113]

I've tried the isoacoustics stands on a few systems now and the results have consistently been amazing. Cleaner sound and a more holographic presentation, the sound just floats there in the air... these stands are reducing or eliminating a lot of extraneous vibration. I think the way they hold the speaker might be pretty similar to hanging them from the ceiling with a rope, but they certainly position the speakers much more accurately. The isoacoustics stands do hold the speaker in position but it feels like it's floating in the horizontal plane.

In any case, it's pretty clear to me at this point that you want the interface between the component or speaker and whatever it's sitting on to have the ability to absorb vibration, I think we can all agree on that but I don't think this will cause a significant change in bass response. The speaker cabinet will move in response to the drivers, but it is many orders of magnitude heavier than the speaker cone and having the speaker cabinet "float" in the horizontal plane does not seem to affect the volume of bass so much as make it sound much cleaner... if there is a decrease in output then it's due to stopping things from vibrating that you don't want to have vibrating in the first place.

The isoacoustics website has some more info and it looks like they did some significant testing, although they don't share detailed results.

Also, I did a shootout with component footers and Herbie's isocups came out on top and are well worth it, the isocups with supersonic hardballs on my tube amp was a nice improvement. I tried his spike/slider combo vs isoacoustics stands on a pair of Lamhorn speakers and the stands had a much larger effect but are much taller than the spike system, which has a layer of vibration-absorbing material in it. So, I like the stands but if you don't have the vertical room for them I'd go with one of Herbie's products.

The cumulative effect of isoacoustics stands + Herbie's isocups has been fantastic, a major upgrade... that's been my experience fwiw... 

[Folsom]

Spikes seem problematic with certain frequencies since the low surface area could create more leverage for movement.

It makes sense to use a large surface area that could dissipate (break) resonances better, while providing less leverage for actual speaker movement.

You don't get resonance breaking with spikes, but perhaps encourage some (or so it seems to me). They're probably better than having large (low) frequencies in your speaker. They appear to be more of a decoupling device.

Not really my field...

[corndog71]

I've tried various spike arrangements with my X-Statiks over the last few years but none of them did what the isoacoustics do. With certain music the bass is effortless and enveloping in a way the spikes never accomplished.  Top to bottom clarity was noticeably improved immediately.  By far one of the most cost-effective tweaks I've ever tried.

[Danny Richie]

You're right man, those little vibrations will cause a glare and some distortion. It causes the imaging to loose focus and lack real layering. And I know your products work and work well even at low volumes where the floor isn't even close to vibrating.

It's like this. Take some type of vibrating device. To not go in a bad direction let's say it is a small hand held neck massager. Turn it loose on the concrete floor and it bounces all over the place. So let's couple it to the floor. Let's put some spikes under it to focus the weight down to small points. It's now much better, but it still moves around because of the hardness of the material used in the spike. It transfers some of the resonance through it. So in between the tip of the spike and the part that screws into the massager we change the density of the material to a plastic or something even softer like a compressed vinyl. Now the layers of it are of different densities and it damps out the resonance of the massager. Now it hardly even moves on the floor at all.

And your spikes work much the same way. Because the different densities of the layers it more effectively damps out vibrations.

It is still coupled to the floor though. 

[Herbie]

Yes, Danny. Excellent illustration and example. That's just about the gist of it, but with the absence of one essential and most important factor. Instead of a layer of simply different density that may have resonance issues of its own, Herbie's Audio Lab uses a layer of vibration-BLOCKING material. If you'll allow my own liberal interpretation of "decoupling," what I'm saying is that by blocking the path of vibration from one surface to another, you have a decoupling interface between them, and in this vibrational realm decoupling is achieved. As mentioned in a previous post: "These products do not isolate equipment from gravity and the whole physical world--they isolate and decouple just in the vibrational environment they are dealing with. These are largely vibrations you cannot feel or readily detect, yet like ants at a picnic are virtually everywhere."

Overall, any loudspeaker support that a speaker is sitting on acts as an intermediary to couple the speaker to the floor (or stand). Yet, a decoupling factor can be incorporated into the design.

An automobile suspension system including the tires "couples" a car to the road. Yet at the same time the suspension system also "decouples" from the road in that it allows the passenger compartment some separation and independence from the road itself.

I remember an old television commercial where two people are arguing whether Certs is a breath mint or a candy mint, and then an overvoice interrupts and says, "Stop! You're both right." I think that's the case here, just a matter of parsing the definitions and interpretations of "coupling" and "decoupling" and whether these terms are absolute or flexible. No need to keep beating an old dog.

I'll buy your postulation that "It is still coupled to the floor though."

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[bdp24]

Although I remain skeptical that a, for instance, subwoofer cabinet is in any danger of being contaminated by having vibrations from a cement foundation transferred into it through spikes (seeing as how the cabinet is far far more resonant than the cement slab), you have at least conned, I mean convinced, me to give your footers a try. Thanks Steve.

[Folsom]

The pads provide more surface area of coupling the physical object to the stand/floor. However vibrations that are reduced by being coupled to the pad are decoupled from the object/floor.

I don't think 99.9% of consumers of the product care.

The point so far I see being made is that while spikes provide benefits, they are mostly isolation. The pads are an improvement because they provide a good enough combination of isolation and reduction that the ultimate end is less vibration even with a bigger coupling potential.

Lastly, good lord, where's the combined effort product between you two?