It's not just UPS

Bill Baker · « **on:** 6 Sep 2004, 03:11 pm »

I have seen post here about the problems with UPS getting out of claims by say "insuffecient packaging" or whatever. Well.... let me tell you that they ALL do that.
I have lost 4 amps and 3 pair of speakers this year alone. The last issue was when Scott Faller sent back the review pair of Usher X-708 speakers. Federal Express. They were dropped so hard that it ripped the coils of all 4 x-over boards. Okay, order new x-overs from Stan and wait for them to come out and look at the box. At least this time I can show them the 10" hole in the packaging.

I had the same thing happen when shipping a pair of heavily modified X-718s to another reviewer in CA where they arrived with all the coils snapped up the boards. (Yes, these are very securley mounted).

Hhmmmm........ think the reviews are doing this? Naaaaa.

Before this was a pair of Usher CP-6311 that were brought in for heavy modifications for a customer prior to him picking them up. These were shipped BAX Global. They arrived with fork lift holes in the box. Supprizingly, there was very slight cosmetic damage to the speakers themselves but obviously could not sell them to the customer like this. By the way, Stan got me a new pair in route ASAP.

The list goes on.

Sometimes they will tell you the product was packed too tight, too loose, wrong packing material, not heavy enough box...yada, yada, yada. They seem to make the trip across the seas with a problem (even by air) but cannot make it across a state??

I may have to hire a person just to handle damage claims.

I have problems with them all and none of them are easy to get a claim out of. They always seem to weasle out some way or another.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Sep 2004, 03:18 pm »

Why hire just one person to handle claims???
Hire a whole crew--

David Ellis · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Sep 2004, 06:36 pm »

I had UPS

sting me for "insufficient packaging" a few years ago to. Then they refused to clarify what this meant. After several email messages I gave-up.

I was ready for small claims court following their lack of response to my email messages... then I lost the initial receipt and couldn't prove that I mailed the speakers - Argh!

Since then I have experienced good success with FedEx ground. They did manage to ding one of my speakers, but paid the claim with little issue.

This might seem strange, but I really like USPS. They are fairly easy on packages, and stuff is always delivered. I don't have any of those "no delivery" problems where customers have to drive to a terminal to receive their package. With smaller parcels I think USPS is the way to go. I have been using USPS for about 2 years with little/no issues. I even send stuff overseas via boat, and it's very reliable.

Dave

Carlman · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Sep 2004, 07:28 pm »

My experience with the USPS has been mostly very good.... and MUCH better than UPS... So, I don't think it's odd at all.

It's expensive to ship heavy or large objects... Generally, anything I ship up to 5 lbs. goes USPS. I feel confident it'll get there safely.... anywhere in the world. The few times I've shipped to Australia, it's cost me about 1/3rd or less of what UPS would cost. One time it took 3 or 4 weeks to get there, the other it took maybe 1. However, I think the problem could have VERY easily been Australia's postal system.

Also, the packages I've received are in good shape... they haven't been thrown, sat on, or used as a jack stand when the delivery vehicle had a flat tire..

(all of which I've received from UPS)

I haven't shipped with FedEx, only received... and all of those shipments have been good. I've used UPS a lot more than any other so, I have a bigger sample of experiences. UPS is about 80% certain to get the package to its destination undamaged. With my smaller samples of FedEx and USPS, it's about 100% and 99% respectively.

Scott F. · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Sep 2004, 11:36 pm »

Hi Bill,

As you mentioned, the collective "gorillas" did a number on the Ushers. That sucks. Guessing, I'd say about 15%-20% of the stuff I get for review is either damaged coming in or going out. Of that, if the piece weighs more than (say) 50 pounds, I'd bet the damage precentage doubles.

My theory is if it's heavy, chances are they will kill it, it doesn't matter who handles it.

What about this. Both of these guys offer insurance. Now, lets say we take our treasured posessions to be shipped to the UPS (or whomever) office and let them pack the boxes. That way if they get damaged in shipping, all they have to do is look in the mirror. That sure would settle any claim disputes for insufficient packaging in one hell of a hurry.

I have no idea how much the actual packing fees would be. I'd even bet you could drop the insurance (well maybe ...if you are feeling really lucky) because they packed it and they shipped it so it's totally their fault no matter what. (kinda utopian isn't it?)

Food for thought.

Carlman · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 01:47 am »

I thought I'd post a quick update since there was a 'UPS Sux' thread that compelled me to open a FedEx account and start using them. In the past month or so and with about 7 shipments, 1 was damaged and 1 was lost. Claims has been slow and customer service has been poor.

So, when I stated that I'm 80% certain UPS will get something to its destination undamaged and on time, it was based on hundreds of shipments. I've received closer to 90% success but there's been a few instances that made me lower my 'feeling of certainty' to just 80...

In any case, I can't believe how bad FedEx is after all the good feedback I've heard. Maybe it's just bad luck/coincidence but we'll see... I don't give up easily.

David Ellis · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 02:13 am »

Carl,

I had my first bad experience with FedEx last month. Lately I have been shipping most of my stuff USPS, and only the heavy stuff via FedEx. Last month I too saw the "other side" of FedEx. After 2 denials, about 10 phone calls, and 2 email messages, FedEx finally paid the claim. Their claim department was a zoo. Their story changed several times. I think they are incomptent and dishonest. I was quite frustrated. the only bright side is that FedEx actually paid the claim. I had a similar experience with UPS, but UPS never did pay their claim - despite being very wrong.

Anyhow, I do apprecaite your words concerning FedEx and I do believe things are changing at FedEx - for the worse.

I shipped my last pair of 1801s via DHL. They arrived safely and the boxes were well intact. I am a little worried though. DHL seems to be spending way too much $ on advertising.

I suppose shipping is a tough business. I am willing to pay more $ for a reliable shipper. If USPS were willing to ship 90lb packages, I'd use USPS for my 1801s too. I suppose my sentiment is quite narrow though. It seems that most folks would rather ship stuff at less cost with a higher probability of damage.

jimmyp58 · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 02:23 am »

I recently shipped a Def Tech subwoofer (~ 100 lbs). via UPS. I provided the box but had the clerk finish the packing (peanuts, etc.). She inspected it before sealing and deemed everything was o.k. I purchased the extra insurance and the box was clearly marked 'Fragile'.

Guess what? The package arrived and the sub is damaged. I filed a claim and went back to the UPS store I shipped it from. The clerk that assisted me said there weren't enough packing peanuts and that probably lead to the problem. Not enough peanuts I asked her? She was the one that put them in and when she tried to seal the box and it wouldn't close snugly, she took peanuts out! I haven't heard back from UPS but my gut tells me they'll try to wriggle their way out of paying for the damage they clearly caused.

Time to look elsewhere when shipping....

David Ellis · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 02:31 am »

Quote

I haven't heard back from UPS but my gut tells me they'll try to wriggle their way out of paying for the damage they clearly caused.

I believe your gut is right. Document your activitiy, then take them to small claims court. I was ready for this... then I lost the origional UPS shipping receipt, argh

nathanm · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 06:08 am »

Quote from: jimmyp58

I recently shipped a Def Tech subwoofer (~ 100 lbs). via UPS. I provided the box but had the clerk finish the packing (peanuts, etc.). She inspected it before sealing and deemed everything was o.k. I purchased the extra insurance and the box was clearly marked 'Fragile'.

Well you really asked for that one, Jimmy. Never never never use foam peanuts to pack ANY audio item, least of all something that heavy! You absolutely cannot trust anyone but yourself to pack something like that. You need that thing to be armored with at least 3 inches of styrofoam on all sides, but polyethylene foam would be the cat's pajamas (takes a beating but returns to its shape whereas styrofoam will be permanently damaged when subjected to severe blunt force trauma).

Peanuts + heavy object=guaranteed damage. Just imagine that subwoofer was your own body and you were pushed down a flight of concrete stairs and then pack accordingly. Your box will be shown no mercy, so all you can do is armor it for battle using rigid, resilient materials and hope for the best.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 06:46 am »

The problem, as my local FedEx reps tell me when I use them to ship my string instruments, is that their sorting facilities have conveyor belts that have drops to other conveyor belts up to 10 feet in height. Now I'm lucky that cellos are pretty light for their volume, but a nice heavy speaker with "inadequate" packing is in serious jeopardy. UPS no doubt has this as well. Their problem is that their delivery men and, I assume, the warehouse workers really are gorillas. When I worked in a computer warehouse, I remember being asked to throw monitors and computers to them when loading onto the UPS truck. 19" and 21" monitors weighing 50-70lbs were flying. Systems with hdds inside? Hang time.

Now, FedEx always came by with a hand truck...

Robert C. Schult · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 06:47 am »

I just emailed this to both UPS and FedEx (took me almost 5 minutes just to figure out how to contact them! Aside from if you can figure out how to navigate their sites in a timely manner, their sites "look" impressive. Posers!):

Quote

You folks are on the net! Congradulations...287 hits from concerned prospects and 8 replys from dissapointed customers:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=12895

This is only one of many threads. Any body listening? My impression is NOT!

Personally, for what it's worth, I avoid your service(?). Too many excuses and blame shifting with appaerently little concern and problem solving for your customer.

Sincerely,
Robert Schult
Ridge Street Audio Designs.

Will it make a difference? I doudt it. These folks rarely listen...they've got a business to run, a job to do and money to make! Who's got time to "listen" to customers and make adustments that helps the customer service and relations!?

Posers!

Too many American big businesses, UPS and FedEx included, have no clue about making ANY kind of contact with them a pleasant experience. Fortunately, I can avoid these feeding frenzied giants.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 06:59 am »

They do get fraud as well as legitimate complaints. Some people deliberately pack their packages poorly and try to claim insurance.

jimmyp58 · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 10:47 am »

nathanm:

In hindsight, you are correct. But when I ask the clerk if this is acceptable and they say yes, what am I left to think/do?

Jim

Carlman · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 01:48 pm »

Quote from: ooheadsoo

They do get fraud as well as legitimate complaints. Some people deliberately pack their packages poorly and try to claim insurance.

After the frustration of my last 2 experiences, I would think FedEx pushes their customers to consider tactics like this as retaliation.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 02:19 pm »

DHL seems to be making a push to compete with Fedex and UPS (with some very funny commercials!). Has anyone tried them shipping audio gear? I just went to their website and did a shipping estimate for comparison of a recent 90lb amp shipment, and they appear to be cheaper than UPS...

nathanm · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 02:38 pm »

Quote from: jimmyp58

nathanm:

In hindsight, you are correct. But when I ask the clerk if this is acceptable and they say yes, what am I left to think/do?

Jim

Yes, I agree that they share the blame, but that's when you have to tell the clerk they're nuts and "don't you have anything stronger?" I don't quite understand how these companies don't follow common sense guidelines for packing things.

I mean, they're supposed to be the pros right? Hmmm.

JohnR · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 02:42 pm »

Quote

The few times I've shipped to Australia, it's cost me about 1/3rd or less of what UPS would cost. One time it took 3 or 4 weeks to get there, the other it took maybe 1. However, I think the problem could have VERY easily been Australia's postal system.

If an item catches the eye of customs then it can take an extra couple of weeks (perhaps more) to finally get it

I've found so far that the best way to post from the US is EMS (express mail service) which only costs slightly more than regular airmail. My experience is that it takes a few days (if customs don't see more than $200 or so on the paperwork)

For those chaps who have commercial use of shipping, I have heard that Bax is good and for commercial account customers rates not much higher than Fedex and UPS. Don't really know for sure but worth a look - ?

PhilNYC · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 02:52 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

For those chaps who have commercial use of shipping, I have heard that Bax is good and for commercial account customers rates not much higher than Fedex and UPS. Don't really know for sure but worth a look - ?

One of the manufacturers I work with just switched from UPS to Bax Global because they got fed up with boxes getting holes ripped in them or "accordian'ed" (let alone product damage) when shipping from Canada to the US. I've had a couple of shipments come from them, and so far so good...

doug s. · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 Oct 2004, 04:04 pm »

fedex *sucks*. i had an extremely well-packed tandberg 3001a tuna damaged in shipment - likely from one of those 10' conveyor-belt drops (tho the fedex claim person told me that boxes have to be packed to withstand a 4' drop). there was *zero* visible damage to the outside of the tuna, but it still dint work. i had *extremely* accurate documantation - foto's of it whilst working, nicks identified, etc. fedex refused to offer me anything more than 50% of my insurance because there was no wisible damage to box or exterior of the tuna. i told them you could kill a baby by shaking it; does this mean the killer isn't liable because there's no wisible damage, other than the fact that the bebe's dead?

after two months, (yust yesterday), they finally reimbursed me my actual damages (which is still $15 less than my insurance), but *only* because they lost the damaged tandberg & never returned it to me.

doug s.