[JRace]

BTW, I consider the single driver speaker with a swarm (search AC if you're not familiar) of subwoofers the ideal (and not a violation of the mantra).

So is there no loyalty to the concept?  After experiencing the sonic bliss, how can they turn away?

How is augmenting the bass not a violation...but augmenting the treble is?

As good as single driver is (and i have 2 sets) they can be better with a little assistance.

It is part of the fun IMO.

[rjbond3rd]

How is augmenting the bass not a violation...but augmenting the treble is?

Bingo. That's the problem with "true religion."  Nobody really believes it, and they bend the rules while insisting that others adhere to the faith.

And all that is just normal audio chatter.  The part that's odd is the "Every X is bad because of Y," where X is (obviously) false and Y is unrelated but sounds technical-ish

[mcgsxr]

I will admit that I have never heard JLM's speakers, but sure would love to.  Those drivers have a great reputation.

The best I ever got my "single" drivers (Visaton b200) to sound was with bass augmentation.  Ran them for around 7 years without a change.

I don't think it is a religious thing, it sure ain't for me, but conventional wisdom would state that an Xover at or below 80Hz won't skew the sound anywhere like one in the mids or treble.  Can it be done well?  For sure.  Can some live without it?  For sure.

Should we all love what we love?  Darn right!

Do I miss the sound of those speakers I owned?  Sure, there are songs that won't likely ever sound as good as they did on those speakers, but the conventional boxed 2 ways I have now (running full range with no bass or treble augmentation) sound good to me, and have vastly superior WAF compared to the huge OB's I used to run.  Now that the room is a finished family space that matters.

I can still listen to what I want, most of the time I want to, at any reasonable volume.

I will no doubt try some other combination in the future, but for now I am pleased with what I have.

You should be pleased with what you have too!

[steve in jersey]

Is it the human condition (of never being satisfied, always curious, wanting to be master of it all)?

[/quote

Yes, the grass is always greener when you're used to weeds & you really have no clue to how make it that way through your own effort!!!

[JLM]

How is augmenting the bass not a violation...but augmenting the treble is?

As good as single driver is (and i have 2 sets) they can be better with a little assistance.

It is part of the fun IMO.

Frequencies below the transition point (about 140 Hz) act like waves, above that like rays.  Multiple subs are needed to solve the waves from bass generators at one end of a room from doubling/cancelling, thus the difference between augmenting bass versus treble.  Search Audio Circle for "swarm" and look up Duke LeJeune's circle.

[Trismos]

For my response to the OP, " Because it's not good enough for the person being asked the question". Pretty simple really. And this is a good thing. Else we may have been taught to believe 'fire in caves' was good enough.

[JRace]

Frequencies below the transition point (about 140 Hz) act like waves, above that like rays.  Multiple subs are needed to solve the waves from bass generators at one end of a room from doubling/cancelling, thus the difference between augmenting bass versus treble.  Search Audio Circle for "swarm" and look up Duke LeJeune's circle.

I know all about that ( i run 4 subs in my house, 1 mounted in-celing the pther 3 distributed around the room).

What I asked though, was how is Single driver + sub not violating the single driver mantra...but single driver + tweet is?

And for the record I run all my single-drivers with subs.

[JLM]

I justify my qualifying statement simply based on different behaviors of sound below and above the transition point and the proper way to address each frequency range.

[versus rider]

All very interesting, I also have been along the single driver road with diy CSS FR125 in bass reflex cabs, these I still use today but with a tweeter, one pair are used with the TV in our holiday home with Fostex super tweeters and the other pair in my office now with aurum cantus G2 as the FR125 rolls off at 12 KHz. Excellent imaging but limited bass. I have also had lowther fidelio with EX2 but new lowther drivers take an age to run in and the bass was poor compared with the original lowther drivers, the model name escapes me. I went on a quest with two wY open baffles, then added a hf horn, then a 400hz tractrix horn that was replaced by a 200hz tractrix horn. After some time it became Raal 140-15D, 200hz tractrix horn with BMS comp driver and eminence alpha 15A in an open backed box with the driver magnet braced. This fave a clean sound up to 350 hz and so the mid horn could run what I call the critical midrange of 300hz to 1500 hz, although I preferred 350hz tp 2Khz. A crossover anywhere on that range is difficult to implement in my opinion. That set up had perfectly weighted fast bass that kept up with the horn no problem but only down to 50hz. On the subject of voxativ, I heard the ampeggio BLH probably the one someone posted priced at $40 k and also the ampeggio due with voxativ field coils £75000. As a single driver speaker was the best and compared to my 3 way horn set up very well and with all the music genre we could throw at it. The best voxativ driver in the best cab is the ultimate single driver speaker but at a price.

[planet10]

What I asked though, was how is Single driver + sub not violating the single driver mantra...but single driver + tweet is?

With a FR used as mid-tweeter with helper woofers you can get driver spacing such that the centre-to-centre distance of the drivers is within the magic 1/4 wavelength at the XO point which effectively makes the drivers co-incident, they act as a single driver. With careful design one can maintain sufficient overlap to be able to get away with simple 1st order XOs (PLLXOs are easiest, but a choke/cap series XO can work if driver selection supports it



This one uses PLLXO at 160 hz.

dave

[TrungT]

^^^^^
Very nice 

[mightym]

That's really very pretty Dave!

The wide load width of the baffle must make those image like butter.

What (if you can ballpark quantify it ) does the XO at 160 Hz do in terms of " how loud will the little fullranger go"?

I'm not sure if my curiosity about that is clear, let me try again.  Would such a set-up make the speaker more suitable for Headbangin' type music?  Within limits?  I listen to mostly Jazz, but grew up on Rock in the 60/70's  and well, you know, every once in a while.....

John

[planet10]

I'm not sure if my curiosity about that is clear, let me try again.  Would such a set-up make the speaker more suitable for Headbangin' type music?  Within limits?  I listen to mostly Jazz, but grew up on Rock in the 60/70's  and well, you know, every once in a while.....

It makes them more suitable. I can play my 60/70s rock-n-roll pretty loud, even in my large room (~250m^3). http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/planet10/493-fall-listening-space.html

But i do not rend to play really lous very often. FASTs are really quite versatile, if your goal is to play loud, you start by pushing the XO point up. The XO point is tires to baffle width so you'd 1st need to rework the box to make it narrower (we have a variation on this specific design that is).  Up to about 350 Hz is reasonable. XO could also be steepened -- if you are using a good digital XO you don't even need to sacrifice the nice phase performance of a simple 1st order. FR could be changed to something that allows more level (Alpair 10.x doesn't give up much DDR to the A7.x,but is motr capable in the bass and in ultimate levels) and bigger or more bass drivers.

dave

[oracle309]

Dave,

very nice wide baffles, are they at chrisb's?

as always I'm sure they sound great.

-stew

[planet10]

At my place at the moment, Chris is working with the Alpair7p/12pw MTM.

Yes they sound very good. They are really neutral and seemless.

dave