[zybar]

I was at Phil's this past weekend and noticed the difference between the Zen and Audience pc's immediately.  As good as the Audience chords are, the VH Audio Flavor 4's were and are better in my system.

I don't think you cna go wrong with either choice.

Why do pc's make a difference, I have no idea and frankly don't really care why.  I just trust my ears.

George

[PJ]

Has anyone got any links as to how power cords could affect the sound? As an Electronic/Electrical Engineer, of all aspects of audio "voodoo", this is one pill I have had the most trouble swallowing..

[Sa-dono]

I was at Phil's this past weekend and noticed the difference between the Zen and Audience pc's immediately.  As good as the Audience chords are, the VH Audio Flavor 4's were and are better in my system.

I don't think you cna go wrong with either choice.

Why do pc's make a difference, I have no idea and frankly don't really care why.  I just trust my ears.

George

George,

Have you ever compared the VH Audio Flavor 4 to the Argent Brujo? I am going to be doing a series of power cord comparisons soon, and am considering including the Flavor 4. However, I was not wholly impressed with the Brujo, so I would like the Flavor 4 to be a fair improvement.

[zybar]

The Brujo does really well on my dac.  Because I only have two Flavor 4's (which I need on my 201's), I haven't done a direct comparison to the Brujo on my dac.

In what way did the Brujo not do it for you?

George

[PhilNYC]

Has anyone got any links as to how power cords could affect the sound? As an Electronic/Electrical Engineer, of all aspects of audio "voodoo", this is one pill I have had the most trouble swallowing..

Here's one:

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm

[Bingenito]

Very interesting article thank you for the link

Now let’s see if the theory can be heard in a few weeks when my cables get here

[djbnh]

Maybe Mr. Chris VenHaus, Mr. Walker, or some other learned individuals can weigh in on the subject re: how/why PCs make a difference.

[Carlman]

Has anyone got any links as to how power cords could affect the sound? As an Electronic/Electrical Engineer, of all aspects of audio "voodoo", this is one pill I have had the most trouble swallowing..

That would be like finding a comparison of different types of water used in people's radiators.  I swear, I could feel a difference!  

Seriously, I know it doesn't make sense.  I'd like to know WHY it makes a difference as well.  I don't think you'll find much technical/EE type info on the subject.  By all means, do a comparison, though.  I think you'll be surprised at the slight improvement a PC can make.  The biggest differences I've heard were on preamp, DAC, amp and transport. (in that order)

[Dozer]

What it is really more like is your car running better after you wash it.   A real phenomenon..... with no scientific basis at all.

Why not just go into the wall, remove six feet of "crap" electrical cord, install a new outlet and reinstall your system that much closer to the power source.   You will infinitely improve that six foot run of power cable.   Can't beat that!

[zybar]

What it is really more like is your car running better after you wash it.   A real phenomenon..... with no scientific basis at all.

Why not just go into the wall, remove six feet of "crap" electrical cord, install a new outlet and reinstall your system that much closer to the power source.   You will infinitely improve that six foot run of power cable.   Can't beat that!

Dozer,

While I can't speak on technical merit, I can say that I can hear a difference.  Is it in my head?  I don't think so.  Why would I want to hear a difference and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on pc's?  My pc's aren't names that will impress others so that can't be it.  I am not the type that needs or wants other's approvals.  Believe me, I would absolutely love to use stock power cords, zip cord from Home Depot, and no power conditioning.  That would put thousands back in my pocket!!

Have you tried various power cords and not heard a difference over stock power cords?  What cords did you try and what is in the rest of your system?

George

[Lost81]

A Volex cord that uses a variant* of the Belden 19364 would be an inexpensive try-out IMHO.

Mouser and Carlton-Bates have these in stock.

Let me relate this little anecdote regarding my experience with power cords:

I ordered some Volex Power Cords.
I replaced the stock power cord (PVC-insulated 18AWG x3, unshielded) to my Video Logic Sirocco Pro amplifier with the Volex power cord (teflon-insulated 14AWG x3 + mylar foil shield), and turned the amplifier on.
I played my usual music.
One of my housemates walk by my room.
He sticks his head in and ask me if I hooked up another subwoofer.
Yes, the change in the depth, volume, and body of bass was that palpable.
And no, the housemate had no idea that I switched power cords.

What do you have to lose apart from US$10 per cord in trying this out?

If it doesn't work for you, sell it to me.
I can always do with more 19364 for my little projects


-Lost81
---

* = Original Belden 19364 from the spool uses natural fiber twine (paper? cotton?) as spacers between the foil shield and the wires. The Belden 19364 in the Volex power cords uses a synthetic twine (polyester?) instead.

[MikeTz]

As another perplexed electrical engineer I know that mubo jumbo aside, a power cable can be measured by its resistance, capacitance, and inductance.  Most power cables are six feet or less so resistance is very low, that leaves capacitance and inductance.  The less the better.  Some cables do have significant inductance and capacitance and that can be audible.  So when people say they can hear a difference they really can in some cases.  Whether you think this "coloration" of the sound is a good thing is a matter of personal taste.

As long as your power cord is of the proper gauge for your amplifier (and lets be practical, if your home wiring in the wall is 14ga. then having a power cord of lower gauge isn't doing a blinking thing) and it has a decent shield, your fine.  If you can get measurements on your cord then you want low resistance, capacitance, and inductance.

Most high quality electronics has very good power supply filtering built in.  The power cord is only there to get current to your device up to the amount your service panel circuit breaker will supply.  A cheap shielded belden cord at the proper gauge is all you need.

Now I like a spirited religious debate on cables as much as the next guy, but there really is very little science behind the power cord argument.

MT

[Sa-dono]

The Brujo does really well on my dac.  Because I only have two Flavor 4's (which I need on my 201's), I haven't done a direct comparison to the Brujo on my dac.

In what way did the Brujo not do it for you?

George

If I had to narrow it down to anything, it would be in regards to naturalness and transparency. In its defense, the cable was not warmed up, and I am unsure of how many hours it had been used. I will be putting it in the loop again at some point, and seeing if my view changes.

I guess I may have to sample the Flavor 4, as this way I can compare it to a range of different power cords. Thanks for the reply!

[Dozer]

George:  Why do you ask with such incredulity "is it in my head?"  Do you have an immunity to the placebo effect which bedevils all mortals?    Why would it be hard to believe that your brain's interpretation of sound is "in your head" and subject to all the other stuff that's in there?   Don't you believe in the power of positive thinking - the power of the mind?

Lost81:   It's pretty axiomatic that if there is a change in volume, then there will be a change in "depth" and "body of bass" and any other audiophile adjective ever conjured up.    Now can someone scientifically demonstrate in a DBT with volume equal that these other lovely audible characteristics are enhanced with a power cord?   If not, then I'll save the $10 for gas and simply turn my stereo up a couple decibels.

The thing I really like about discussions like this is that on the one hand guys will say "you have wool ears and/or a poorly resolving system - that's your problem".    On the other hands guys will say "my wife, dog, neighbors, and the neighbors' dog ALL hear it loud and clear so the difference is irrefutable"....  

Lest you think I'm just a naysayer - I have MIT speaker cables and I could swear they enhance the sound of my system.  If I didn't think so I would off them for a few hundred bucks.  But the psychological return on investment is there for me so I'm cool.    However I am wide open to the possibility that it is in my mind - why wouldn't it be?

[Occam]

As another perplexed electrical engineer I know that mubo jumbo aside, a power cable can be measured by its resistance, capacitance, and inductance.  Most power cables are six feet or less so resistance is very low, that leaves capacitance and inductance.  The less the better.

No, it depends where in the powercord circuit the capacitance and/or inductance is. Another area you need to consider is the field  charateristics of various geometries.

Some cables do have significant inductance and capacitance and that can be audible.  So when people say they can hear a difference they really can in some cases.  Whether you think this "coloration" of the sound is a good thing is a  good thing is a matter of personal taste.

Capacitive coupling to ground is quite deleterious, certainly resulting in coloration but when 'accross the line', quite palliative and anything but a coloration, it serves a sound engineering purpose.

Most high quality electronics has very good power supply filtering built in. The power cord is only there to get current to your device up to the amount your service panel circuit breaker will supply. A cheap shielded belden cord at the proper gauge is all you need.

You're kidding right? Good power supply filtering? I think you are confusing power supply quality with the PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) of the downstream electronics. Capacitve input rectification has always been rather noisy. Look at the crap on the AC line introduced by that 'good power supply filtering', and the crap passed in by their requisite toroid transformers.

Now I like a spirited religious debate on cables as much as the next guy, but there really is very little science behind the power cord argument.

Sadly, you are right. But you've certainly done nothing to change that 'batting average'.

[Occam]

Los,

While I agree that the Volex 17604/5 is a maximum, bang for the buck no-brainer, upgrade, sadly, for $10, you don't get Teflon(tm), but rather pedestian PVC.  But take heart! You can tell your friends that its also a halogenated polymer.

Tomato, Potato,
Chlorine, Flourine,
Lets call the whole thing off.....

[Lost81]

Lost81: It's pretty axiomatic that if there is a change in volume, then there will be a change in "depth" and "body of bass" and any other audiophile adjective ever conjured up. Now can someone scientifically demonstrate in a DBT with volume equal that these other lovely audible characteristics are enhanced with a power cord? If not, then I'll save the $10 for gas and simply turn my stereo up a couple decibels.
 ...

Ah, here's the kicker though...
The pot / volume control notch was still at the same position.

Now where did you get the impression that I turned up the volume?

Hmmm...

So, wait, you are going to tell me that a power cord made from 18AWG x 3, with no shield, behaves identically from one that is 14AWG x3, with a mylar foil shield + fabric spacing?

I guess I better forward this piece of revolutionary information to manufacturers around the world. They will save a bundle in copper.



-Lost81

[PJ]

I'm only a graduate Electronic Engineer, but have been involved in low noise preamplifier design, at audio frequencies (but not audio signals - no difference anyway), at noise levels that are in a different league to those involved in audio. In other words, I know enough to get myself into trouble in a field that is *extremely* complex  .

I still can see no reason why a power cord would make any difference in a correctly designed setup.

For Jon Risch's "current spike" arguement...what about the wiring leading from the outside world to power cable. The voltage will drop in proportion to the resistance of the entire supply chain. The resistance of the final 1m of transmission is insignificant irrespective of AWG (assuming you are only making it thicker).

For inductance....I would have thought more inductance would have been better. An inbuilt ferrite clamp if you will. I can't see how the parasitic inductance of any power cord is relevant at audio frequencies. Capacitance similarly. Ground bounce etc, caused by power-line inductances in high-speed digital circuits is not relevant.

For shielding, I can't see how it could block any incoming signals, as more would be picked up elsewhere. As for emissions onto nearby line-level interconnects etc....unless you literally taped them together I can't imagine much coupling at all as line-level interconnects are already shielded.

Considering unshielded speaker-level lines...capacitive coupling is not relevant as the impedance is too low. The signal levels would also drown out any coupled signals.

I could of course be completely wrong...(Occam may shut me down )which wouldn't bother me as EMC (electromagnetic compatability) is a field of great interest for me..

[PhilNYC]

George:  Why do you ask with such incredulity "is it in my head?"  Do you have an immunity to the placebo effect which bedevils all mortals?    Why would it be hard to believe that your brain's interpretation of sound is "in your head" and subject to all the other stuff that's in there?   Don't you believe in the power of positive thinking - the power of the mind?...

I wouldn't have so much issue believing that the differences I heard were in my mind EXCEPT for the fact that the differences appear to be consistent across different peoples' ears and systems.

I've been in more than enough demo/shootout situations (whether it be our monthly NY Audio Rave gatherings or with individual customers at both my place or theirs) to hear *consistent* differences in the effect specific power cords have on components and systems.  When 15+ people in a room all look at each other and say "where's the bass?" or "wow, much better imaging!" almost in unison, I have a hard time believing that every single person is simply imagining the identical effect of the power cord.  This has been done with a pretty wide range of cords, most of which are similar gauge but different geometries or other design.

I don't have any technical explanation for it; but I've found the results easily consistent and repeatable.  I've also found greater effects of power cords on front end (DACs, cdps and preamps) moreso than power amps.  

My two cents...

[woodsyi]

I read some bits from Bohr, Shroedinger, Heisenberg, etc., but I got most of my scientific "knowledge" from Arthur C. Clark, Issac Assimov, Gorden Dickson  and others.  Suffice to say, I fall in the league that considers audio equipment as a work art rather than those who consider it as no nonsense piece of machine, which have predictable performance dictated by the immutable underlying scientific principles.  

I just would like to state that science is what we developed to explain what we perceive of the world.  We deduce correlations from collected data, formulate a scientific theory by way of inductive reasoning,  test and tweak it over different conditions over time until it repeats sucessful predictions and then declare it the law when all oppponents of the theory die off.  What really happens in the wires where "electric charge" propagates from one end of metal/crystaline array to the other end?  Straight line?  Loopy spiral?  Quantumn Leap?  

Whenever someone goes into the "science" of audio hardware, I just keep reminding myself that workings of transistors can only be explained with the "tunneling effect" of electrons at quantumn levels.  The rascally electron defies "logic" and burrows under predicted "levels"!  It's like the boiling water that will freeze(crystalize) faster than cold water if suddenly dropped into cold enough temperature.   Explain that through thermodynamics!   If by some new "geometry" or by some arcane metallurgy, a power cord gives bigger "soundstage" who am I to argue?

Whatever the choice of conductor, geometry or size that produce good and repeatable harmony of sound (after burn in ofcouse) as peceived by my ears at an affordable price for me is the "right" one for me.  Since I can't try everything, I will have to depend on the reviews of some trusty fellow "audiophiles" to narrow down the choices.   That's what this board is all about.  Right?