[dex67]

Hi all,

I'm new on this 'circles' but I figure that I'll try and post this in here. I have a pair of Vapor Audio Nimbus speakers that I feel have somewhat a 'loose' bass. The Nimbus replaced a pair of Escalante Design Fremonts (and those replaced a pair of Ascendo C8). When I had the Ascendo or even the Fremonts, the bass was tight and powerful. Not so much with the Nimbus...Can it be the room?

My audio room is in the basement and it is 20x22x8. It has a drop ceiling and wood panels on the side. Right behind the speakers I have curtains just to cover the ugly wall and a door that leads to outside. The speakers are placed along the 20 ft wall, about 4 ft from the wall, with the distance between the tweeters being 8.5 ft. My listening position is about 9.5-10 ft. The right wall has a wood-burning stove, the left wall is empty with a loveseat next to it.

As I said before, maybe it is the room, but I've never had any bass problems in the past. Here are some pics:













Thanx.

[Glenn Kuras]

I have never been in a room that did not benefit from trapping or other treatment at places like the early reflection points, but if you have very thin walls then a lot of the low end that would cause nulls and peaks might be  passing through. That might be what you are hearing or you just have never been in a room that is 100% acoustically treated to hear what you are missing. 

[jriggy]

Im not a professional like Glenn is but I saw a couple things... is that a plexiglass cube of some sort sitting in front of the fireplace? That needs to go.
And move that long lounge chair back four feet or so for when you add first reflection point absorption.

[JLM]

Loose bass at what frequency?  As the room is almost square I'd expect elevated response (around 50 Hz, 100 Hz, 150 Hz, etc. in your case).  If you want to buy absorption, I'd recommend putting it up opposite the fireplace (lots of hard/reflective surfaces there).

And IMO no amount of room geometry or treatments can deal effectively with in-room bass response without a swarm of (3 or more "randomly" placed) subwoofers.  Search Audio Circle for "swarm."  An even better reference is Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction."

[GT Audio Works]

While room treatments can help, especially corner treatments. I would look into the interaction between speaker and amp.
Whenever folks bring their amps up to my place to demo my speaker, I find this change makes the biggest difference in speaker performance.  In one instance, the same manufacturer of two different models showed a major difference in bass performance.
                                                                                                             Greg

[werd]

I would say the size of those woofers is forcing you to use bass traps.

[Glenn Kuras]

Im not a professional like Glenn is but I saw a couple things... is that a plexiglass cube of some sort sitting in front of the fireplace? That needs to go.
And move that long lounge chair back four feet or so for when you add first reflection point absorption.

If that thing is inline with the early reflection point then yes I  would chance it. See the following video we did on early reflection points.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/video-early-first-reflection-points/

[dex67]

thanx all for your input...few comments...the plexi cube in front of the fireplace is my Gingko turntable cover...lol...it has no impact on the sound since it stays right on top of the turntable when I listen to my CD collection...so that's not it...

not the amp either as I've tried quite few amps in my system...I never had this 'loose' bass with my Escalante Fremonts powered by 16W of tube monoblocks or when I had my Ascendo C-8 powered by 500W/channel Bel Canto monoblocks...

I might try some bass traps..subwoofers are out of the questions...never liked them in a 2-chennel set-up...

adrian

[JLM]

While I firmly believe that bass is foundational to audiophile sound, I'm not a "basshead."  The need for multiple subs addresses standing waves that properly characterize how sound below the Schroeder frequency (roughly 130 Hz depending on the room) behaves.  Below that frequency sound waves in the room moves as waves, like waves caused by moving your hand back and forth along the length of a shallow bathtub of water.  The waves reach the far end and bounce back.  When they meet the next waves they either nullify or add.  In-room that can be a +/- 20 dB difference.  Note that the effect is frequency/location dependent.  No amount of treatment or EQ can effectively deal with it.

The swarm solutions I've seen use small subs, not to produce extremely low frequencies or high spls, just proper frequency response throughout the room.  Once you understand the pheonemon you'll wonder why anyone buys expensive full range main speakers.   

[jriggy]

thanx all for your input...few comments...the plexi cube in front of the fireplace is my Gingko turntable cover...lol...it has no impact on the sound since it stays right on top of the turntable when I listen to my CD collection...so that's not it...

Sorry for the confusion... I was not suggesting that the plexiglass box was your bass problem. I have dealt with highly reflective and highly absorbent things that close and to the sides of my speakers before and was suggesting it for other improvements. Glad to hear it does not sit there while you are listening...
Your bass issue may be the one thing that is bothering you but there are always other issues and things to take care of in a completely untreated room that will bring you satisfaction you didn't even know was there...but Im sure you are getting that, and will receive other comments about your room. Those speakers deserve the room to be thought through.

[SoCalWJS]

Have you taken any measurements?
Have you experimented with speaker placement?
Can you alter the Bass Phase?
It looks like your primary listening position is limited by the room support poles and you may just be in a place that compounds a basic node. Take some measurements and confirm what the problem is before you try to solve the problem - it will help you make better choices in finding a solution.

You can also look into the DualCore Anti Mode or similar. Some of the best bass I've heard used that to address Bass problems.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

[Devil Doc]

To answer your question, yes, everyone needs room treatment, and you can't have too many bass traps. It's really that simple. Don't make your problem more complicated than it needs to be.

Doc

[WGH]

Sounds like an electronics - speaker - room mismatch. You probably got lucky with the other speakers and they work well in an almost square room, the Nimbus not so much. I would think that any money spent on room treatment would not be wasted so it's a good place to start.

I had an interesting experience a couple of weeks ago. A friend brought over a Dude pre-amp over for a listen (very, very smooth and refined sound). The AVA amp stayed the same but the sound was now loose, not what I expected from my Salk HT2-TL's. Luckily he also brought over a pair of Zenwave Audio (formerly Dave's Cables) D4 interconnects we put between the Dude and amp and the sound tightened up nicely. Dave is a good guy, see if you can try out the D4, some D3 interconnects were making a tour recently too. I liked the D3's in my system, the D4's are a different animal and tightened things up too much with the AVA FetValve pre-amp and Synergy amp but worked perfectly with the Dude.

[jimtranr]

Your Escalantes and your Ascendos were essentially stand-mounted speakers. Your Vapor Audios are true floorstanders. I can't tell from the photos if the Nimbuses are mounted on spikes or other energy-dissipation devices, but direct coupling of the speaker enclosures (and possibly your woofers' proximity) to the floor may be creating at least part of what you're experiencing as "loose."

Corner traps (in all corners, not just the front) will certainly help with room modes. And I second the suggestion to trap the first reflection points to eliminate or at least minimize image smear. Wherever the stove sits with respect to your sitting position, I'd cover the front of it with a removable acoustic panel whenever you're listening. The reflections it generates will likewise smear what you hear.   

[dex67]

thank you all again…i never thought about stand mounted vs floor standers…hmmm…my Lawrence Audio Violins, the Music Culture RL21, the Ascendo C-8, and the Escalante Fremonts were all stand mounted speakers…that's true…i do have my Nimbus on spikes…maybe i can take them off spikes and experiment…

as for interconnects and speaker cables, i'm using Dana Cable Diamond series and those are probably the best i've heard…so i'll keep them…

i'll look into bass traps and some cheap room treatments and i'll try to move the love seat back (actually that wasn't in the room when i had the other speakers) and i'll try to put something in from of the stove…

adrian

[brooklyn]

Hi dex67, this may be a minor thing but it looks like your audio equipment is on the exact plane of the speakers.

It might be helpful to move your speakers a little forward and/or the audio rack back a little if possible. I keep my
audio rack on the side wall which you can do but you would need longer speaker cables.

Good luck with your loose bass issue.

[Glenn Kuras]

If you really want to try to figure this out then I would recommend testing the room. The following is a free program that will let you do this.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/
Testing will also help you figure out if the speakers and listing seat are in the right spot.

[undertow]

First thing is remove those posts in the middle of the listening position!

Seriously the first thing every system will benefit from is a proper setup, and acoustically good room.

However, its always the last or "Never" done component in most systems for good reason as logistics and costs are way outside the norm.

Measuring the room, time, materials, costs of constructing, and designing is always an issue unless you basically know from scratch your gonna build a "listening" room.

My theory is that in fact audio gear is :

50% of the sound is the recording quality

40% of the sound is the room

10% of the sound is unfortunately the thing most focused on, and easily changed "gear".

Bottom line you might not get perfection, but throwing 500 or 600 worth of Bass Corner traps where you can might help a little.

[undertow]

By the way in my experience which looks to be your possible issues as well...

Basic office type Drop ceilings, and Concrete directly under thin carpet are horrific to balanced sound.

I realize this is not fixable in your situation, most can't or won't, but best I have always found is 10 to 12 ft ceiling height with Solid Drywall, and real hardwood floors, not that laminate Pergo fake wood stuff which is even worse than just throwing everything directly on concrete in my opinion.

Good Luck

[Glenn Kuras]

The floor is about density, but yes concrete will reflect  A LOT of low end for sure. For  a drop ceiling this can actually be turned into an advantage.

1)Replace tiles with absorption or diffusion.
2)Above the drop ceiling fill the WHOLE area to make the ceiling into a large bass trap.