[tortugaranger]

We are considering offering the option of using pure (99.99%) solid silver wire for the internal audio connections within our new LDRx/LDRxB Passive Preamps. Having researched this topic and and done some of our own listening tests I'm becoming increasingly convinced of the benefits of using pure silver (telfon coated or wire-in-tube). It's pricey stuff and of course the benefits may be negated if your interconnect cables aren't also of similar quality.

I'd be interested to hear your views on this subject.

Cheers,
Morten

[wilsynet]

How much would such an option add to the price?

[Big Red Machine]

I would do wire in teflon tubing as I have odds and ends of solid silver and plenty of tubing in the spare parts bins.  I prefer my cable to be silver, so why not the wiring in a device.

[bonsai]

I built a DCB1 buffer two years ago and used .999 Fine Silver Round Wire, 20-Ga., Dead Soft wire from RIOGRANDE.  You pay by the foot which is nice

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/999-Fine-Silver-Round-Wire-Dead-Soft/105310?Pos=4

I then got some of this teflon tubing for the Ga of wire. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AWG20-0-86MM-TEFLON-Insulated-TUBE-FOR-BARE-WIRE-12M-/281302035592?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item417ee86c88

Unreal how good it sounds.. . I think the .999 is solid and sounds great.  I don't know if you need to go to the .9999 or not. 

PS - I have paid for my preamp and I'd like to know what the added $$ I'd need to pay you to do this. 

[konut]

This would be a worthwhile option but it would matter in the context of whether it contributes to system synergy. If a system tends to be on the bright side then copper might be the better option. What I have found is that the critical factor is the quality of the preceding voltage stage. Higher quality source components, with discrete gain stages, offer a smoother presentation that would benefit from the silver wiring. What I find telling is that you have found an improvement in your tests and would also like to know how much this upgrade would cost given the short distances involved in the internal wiring of the LDRxs. How would you characterize the differences to the standard copper? 

[DaveC113]

I'd say no on 4n silver. It needs to be 5n to not add harshness. Upocc is even better, and by quite a bit. I'd offer you a sample of my occ silver/gold alloy wire if you want to give it a shot too.

[tortugaranger]

How much would such an option add to the price?

I'm looking into this and let you know soon.

One thing I've concluded is anything beyond 99.99% silver probably isn't credible whereas 99.99% is actually commercially available from multiple sources with substantiated assays. Also, silver in teflon tube is probably superior to both teflon coated silver or silver in cotton due to the combined higher dielectric of air between the wire and  teflon tube and the superior protection of teflon to EMI/RFI noise.

There's quite a bit of unsubstantiated myth out there about silver being harsh and trebly but the more I investigate this the more this appears to be just that.....myth.

I'm getting pricing on various options and will be able to come up with an adder once I have that info in hand and have had a chance to digest it.

[tortugaranger]

I'd say no on 4n silver. It needs to be 5n to not add harshness. Upocc is even better, and by quite a bit. I'd offer you a sample of my occ silver/gold alloy wire if you want to give it a shot too.

99.99 silver harsh. 99.99 silver not harsh. Too much conflicting info and both can't be right. And as with much in audio land I suspect there's no definitive answer to put this issue to rest once and for all. Based on my own research the harshness argument seems rooted more in myth than fact given the abundance of positive user testimonials for silver generally which I tend to give more credence. I've recently personally given 99.99 silver a test drive and was pleasantly surprised. That's not to say there's isn't something better. But I'm a skeptical OEM and am very reluctant to promote anything to my customers that I haven't totally bought into. That all said, i'm open to trying.

Cheers,
Morten

[DaveC113]

99.99 silver harsh. 99.99 silver not harsh. Too much conflicting info and both can't be right. And as with much in audio land I suspect there's no definitive answer to put this issue to rest once and for all. Based on my own research the harshness argument seems rooted more in myth than fact given the abundance of positive user testimonials for silver generally which I tend to give more credence. I've recently personally given 99.99 silver a test drive and was pleasantly surprised. That's not to say there's isn't something better. But I'm a skeptical OEM and am very reluctant to promote anything to my customers that I haven't totally bought into. That all said, i'm open to trying.

Cheers,
Morten

Definitely not a myth, over time 4N silver will cause listening fatigue. Even if you can't really tell now in your initial testing, over time it will be irritating. Also, UPOCC copper sounds better than 4N silver. I've proven that many, many times now with my cables. If you're going to use silver, UPOCC is far better than 4N, so much so that they only sound vaguely like the same material. The alloy wire I have is a further improvement on UPOCC silver, the gold added to it makes the tone very realistic. IMO, using 4N silver for audio is a mistake. The positives you read are just that, someone's experience and you have no idea about context and what system was used. This is why the conflicting info you are getting is BOTH right. Context.

[glynnw]

I have been using silver wire in my homebrew cables for over 10 years and used it to build both my Tortuga preamps so far.  I originally bought the bare wire on ebay as jewelers silver wire, so I have no idea of the purity, but harsh it is not...not at all.  When I originally built them I was using Nordost Red Dawn, but this was slightly better.

[rajacat]

I've procured some solid Neotech 24 gauge UPOCC silver that I'll be using for my diy Tortuga. I opted for the Teflon coated wire. The quantity used in the pre is so little that I figured why not use the best?

[Speedskater]

.............................................
 Also, silver in teflon tube is probably superior to both teflon coated silver or silver in cotton due to the combined higher dielectric of air between the wire and  teflon tube and the superior protection of teflon to EMI/RFI noise.
....................................... .....

Say what about Teflon® and EMI/RFI?

'SY' sometimes writes that Teflon® is a poor choice for a wire insulation.

[tortugaranger]

Say what about Teflon® and EMI/RFI?

'SY' sometimes writes that Teflon® is a poor choice for a wire insulation.

Teflon by itself offers no emi/rfi protection but there is Teflon impregnatd with conductive material that does. You are correct that as stated that reference to emi/rfi made no sense. Good catch. 

From a purely dielectric standpoint Teflon is a 2 vs air being a 1. Your typical plastic wire insulations are in the range of 3-4. You could argue Teflon isn't the best but it's generally better than most other plastics. Where Teflon excels is in its high breakdown voltage and thermal/chemical/mechanical robustness. It's tough stuff.

I prefer to work with Teflon wire due to its robustness. You can briefly hit Teflon with a soldering iron and nothing happens. Your more typical plastics instantly melt.

Running bare wire inside a larger Teflon tube rather than coating it with Teflon helps to improve the overall dielectric by combining both air and Teflon. This would be my choice with silver wire.

[DaveC113]

Teflon by itself offers no emi/rfi protection but there is Teflon impregnatd with conductive material that does. You are correct that as stated that reference to emi/rfi made no sense. Good catch. 

From a purely dielectric standpoint Teflon is a 2 vs air being a 1. Yet there are numerous plastics that are better than Teflon in the range of 3-4. Thus you could argue Teflon isn't the best. Where Teflon excels is in its high breakdown voltage and thermal/chemical/mechanical robustness. It's tough stuff.

Given a choice where absolute dielectric isn't the key criteria I prefer to work with Teflon wire due to its robustness. You can briefly hit Teflon with a soldering iron and nothing happens. Your more typical plastics instantly melt.

Running bare wire inside a larger Teflon tube rather than coating it with Teflon helps to increase the overall dielectric by combining both air and Teflon. This would be my choice with silver wire.

Silver wire tarnishes from exposure to air after a while.

[tortugaranger]

Silver wire tarnishes from exposure to air after a while.

Indeed it does. Aside from optics, how is this relevant to the performance of the wire in audio applications after installation?

[DaveC113]

Some say it won't matter but everything matters imo. The whole point of an air dielectric is to have air on the outside of the wire, but after it tarnishes you don't have air on the outside of your wire anymore. Furthermore, corrosion gets into the grain of metals like roots in the earth.

[tortugaranger]

Some say it won't matter but everything matters imo. The whole point of an air dielectric is to have air on the outside of the wire, but after it tarnishes you don't have air on the outside of your wire anymore. Furthermore, corrosion gets into the grain of metals like roots in the earth.

Hence your preference for single(minimal) grain silver/gold wire such as Neotech?
Little or no corrosion with the presence of gold?
Can't get those corrosion roots in between grains if there isn't much "in between"?

[RDavidson]

Silver wire tarnishes from exposure to air after a while.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think the tarnish (on silver) affects conductivity. Corrosion (that green and brown junk), on the other hand will.
BTW, I agree that the quality of the wire and how it is made probably has a larger affect on signal transmission, than just the metals themselves. Silver is only slightly more conductive than copper. So it makes sense to me that UPOCC copper would likely "sound" better than just 4N silver. UPOCC copper vs UPOCC silver would be an interesting comparison.

[barrows]

Bruno Putzeys, Hypex and Grimm Audio designer, has mentioned that silver in teflon is a bad choice due to tribo electric effects.  As he is not someone to espouse non-scientific "audiophile beliefs", I personally respect his opinion on this subject.
There is silver litz wire out there, which would entirely eliminate any worries about surface oxidation.
Insanely expensive Duelund silver wire in oil impregnated cotton is probably the "best" option, but the price...
I used to work for PS audio, and when we were developing new interconnect cables (which never actually made it to market) it came to our attention that silver wire of more than 4 nines was mostly myth.  Yes, you could purchase wire which was nominally 5 nines, but when actually tested, not really.  We found OCC copper to be at least as good, if not better, than the silver we could get.  Inside a component, with multiple wire terminations, I would also expect termination type and quality would dominate sonic differences, and if you are talking about a preamp, which requires switching between mutiple inputs, the switch quality will probably make more difference than that between 4N/5N silver and OCC copper.

[DaveC113]

That's probably true. The higher the purity the more time it will take to corrode. I have 4N silver that turned black fairly quickly, within a couple years for sure... and I have some bare upocc silver (though the origins are dubious) that has some corrosion but it is coming at a much slower rate. Grain length on upocc metals can be many meters so it is true it is naturally less exposed to corrosion. Metal parts can be burnished to prevent corrosion which alters the surface properties of the metal, smoothing and sealing it... so it stands to reason a surface with little to no imperfections will tarnish more slowly.

I just use teflon insulation.... it is very neutral and while it doesn't sound quite as good as cotton or air dielectric the difference is so subtle I feel like it is a good tradeoff. I have been thinking about using the teflon tube but assembling the wire in an inert gas atmosphere or flushing the tube with an inert gas and then sealing the ends, but it seems like a lot of extra work and a large expense for little gain. I believe in keeping things simple, which allows me to charge reasonable prices. Teflon insulation keeps the wire from exposure to the air and it sounds better than any other dielectric that is capable of sealing the wire, so I use it.

RDavidson, upocc metals do have a similar sound. The biggest difference between upocc silver and copper is that upocc silver adds no warmth, so it is more detailed, more neutral... more transparent. It is quite a large difference especially when used in interconnects. It's a big difference in speaker cables too, but not quite as much as with ICs.

barrows, the Duelund silver wire (5N silver with silk and mineral oil insulation), while having a very beautiful tone, is nowhere close to neutral due to it's unique dielectric, the result is a fairly warm silver wire, and this warmth does obscure detail, and quite a bit of it too. Despite that, I use Duelund silver in one of my cables as it's synergy with systems that are on the hot or bright side can be excellent. Compared to upocc silver in teflon... it is nowhere close to the neutrality and detail offered. It sounds like you did not test upocc silver at PS Audio... if you did I think what you wrote would be very different wrt to the purity of silver. I do agree it's probably better to use upocc copper than most silver wire. But upocc silver is really in another league altogether! I also completely agree about the quality of connections and switches.     Oh yeah... the upocc silver/gold alloy I use in my cables is double the price of Dueleund silver for the same gauge!