Herbie talk

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BobRex

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #20 on: 13 Aug 2014, 08:11 pm »
Okay I am going to throw my thoughts at you a bit, as a loudspeaker designer....

Actually most floors are typically a slab of concrete and are the least resonant thing in the room. And pressure changes in the room, even at high SPL levels that shake everything in the room, have zero effect on the floor.

Even if the floor were a pier and beam type floor that did allow itself to be effected by the pressure changes of the room still does not work its way back up to the speaker and resonate it in any measurable way. Flexing of the floor (a wood floor) would have just as much effect generating a resonance to a lamp, desk, chair, or anything else against the floor. If the floor was really being a conductor of this energy then maybe we should be treating everything touching it.


I think this part of your premise is flawed.

Relative to the first statement:   In the Northeast most houses have basements that do indeed have concrete floors, but those houses also have first and second floors that are wood (plywood, if newer construction, boards if older) on top of joists.  This includes older apartments in major cities. 

Regarding the second paragraph:  Yup, and I've seen lamps and end tables vibrate from speaker vibrations.  It takes high SPLs, but it's not difficult to do. 

DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #21 on: 13 Aug 2014, 08:43 pm »
I didn't believe it until I tried this product:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ISOL8R200Sub

I put one under my sub, it worked so well now they are under my main speakers too. The difference in clarity and increased detail is not subtle, it is really amazing!

I am definitely a de-coupling convert after trying them! Coupling made more sense to me and the fact the isol8r stands work so well is still a little baffling, but the fact is coupling speakers (to ANY floor) does not work very well.

Danny Richie

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #22 on: 13 Aug 2014, 08:47 pm »
I think this part of your premise is flawed.

Relative to the first statement:   In the Northeast most houses have basements that do indeed have concrete floors, but those houses also have first and second floors that are wood (plywood, if newer construction, boards if older) on top of joists.  This includes older apartments in major cities. 

Regarding the second paragraph:  Yup, and I've seen lamps and end tables vibrate from speaker vibrations.  It takes high SPLs, but it's not difficult to do.

I have a pier and beam floor in my home as well. It still takes a lot to cause any movement. In my case it takes a really low note of around 20Hz or lower to get it to move and really high SPL levels. And in that case the floor is still the least of the problems. Walls, ceiling, and windows are usually going crazy at those levels. So I understand there are differences with different floor types, but the same applies.

Danny Richie

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #23 on: 13 Aug 2014, 08:54 pm »
I didn't believe it until I tried this product:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ISOL8R200Sub

I put one under my sub, it worked so well now they are under my main speakers too. The difference in clarity and increased detail is not subtle, it is really amazing!

I am definitely a de-coupling convert after trying them! Coupling made more sense to me and the fact the isol8r stands work so well is still a little baffling, but the fact is coupling speakers (to ANY floor) does not work very well.

I believe there are benefits there and some benefit from an absorbor if the mass spring rate is correct. But that is still not de-coupling. And what is happening is not separating the speaker from a floor resonance. It is damping the force generated by the speaker.

My car has shock absorbers on all four wheels, but the car is not de-coupled from the road. It is still in direct contact to the road.

apollophono

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #24 on: 13 Aug 2014, 09:19 pm »
Dave C113 I sent you a PM about the isolator product you used.  This whole topic should
have it's own thread under the lab as it something that all of us have dealt with it in
some form or fashion.  I personally have never heard a better set up than my Rega
Planar 2 mounted on a load bearing wall in a pier and beam house.  Now I'm in a
slab house and having trouble replicating that audio nirvana I hit with that older setup
30 some years ago.  Coupling, decoupling and isolating are to me extremely critical
to how your system can sound.  Sometimes is more important than cable, power cord
cable end connections, cleaning records etc. 

Just my 2 cents.

DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #25 on: 13 Aug 2014, 09:45 pm »
I believe there are benefits there and some benefit from an absorbor if the mass spring rate is correct. But that is still not de-coupling. And what is happening is not separating the speaker from a floor resonance. It is damping the force generated by the speaker.

My car has shock absorbers on all four wheels, but the car is not de-coupled from the road. It is still in direct contact to the road.

Sure, I think there are some semantic misunderstandings then... the speakers have to be on something, even magnetic force levitation will apply force on whatever it's resting on, and the isol8r stands are doing something similar... this is what I am referring to as decoupling. Coupling would be using a rigid material like a spike into a hardwood floor.

I like the suspension analogy, it does seem similar. While your car is not decoupled entirely from the road there is a large degree of isolation. Otherwise you'd have a sore butt and a bad back from driving around.  :green:

I can say from experimentation that using the isol8r stands are separating the speaker from the floor to some degree no matter what you want to call it, and they GREATLY reduce the amount of resonance that the sub/speakers put into the floor. You get much less stuff rattling around in your house from higher SPLs /  low frequencies.

apollophono, agreed it is a very important topic and makes a big difference in sound.


Danny Richie

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #26 on: 13 Aug 2014, 11:18 pm »
Quote
Sure, I think there are some semantic misunderstandings then... the speakers have to be on something, even magnetic force levitation will apply force on whatever it's resting on, and the isol8r stands are doing something similar... this is what I am referring to as decoupling. Coupling would be using a rigid material like a spike into a hardwood floor.

You really have to look at something like this over a frequency range.

Let's say I hit the floor with a 20Hz note and really shake it. The speaker will react the same way on an isol8r stand as it would with a solid spike. It is like a big wave to a small boat. It will rock the boat.

Now think about higher frequency where the space between waves is very small. It is like a lot of tiny waves all across the water. The small boat averages them out and remains fairly still.

Devices like this can work the same way. Little resonances can be averaged out, but it still has to be solid enough to hold the speaker still. If the damper allows for large scale movements like a soft spring then it will cancel out bass output by absorbing the force of the woofer.

And again dampers like these are doing there work on the force the speaker is producing, not reflected energy from the room or floor back to the speaker.

Think of this like our servo controlled woofers. The servo system compares cone movement to signal input and dampens out cone movement that does not match the signal. This involves stored energy of the moving mass and even pressure changes in the box that apply pressure to the cone that does not match input. Saying that the output of the speaker resonated the floor which in turn then vibrated the speaker is like saying that the air pressure in the room came back on the cone and exerted a new force on the cone that in turn the servo system had to dampen out. That takes a lot of SPL in the first place and secondly it still is and always will be a tiny fraction of what the speaker itself is producing.

DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #27 on: 14 Aug 2014, 04:49 am »
You really have to look at something like this over a frequency range.

Let's say I hit the floor with a 20Hz note and really shake it. The speaker will react the same way on an isol8r stand as it would with a solid spike. It is like a big wave to a small boat. It will rock the boat.

Now think about higher frequency where the space between waves is very small. It is like a lot of tiny waves all across the water. The small boat averages them out and remains fairly still.

Devices like this can work the same way. Little resonances can be averaged out, but it still has to be solid enough to hold the speaker still. If the damper allows for large scale movements like a soft spring then it will cancel out bass output by absorbing the force of the woofer.

And again dampers like these are doing there work on the force the speaker is producing, not reflected energy from the room or floor back to the speaker.

Think of this like our servo controlled woofers. The servo system compares cone movement to signal input and dampens out cone movement that does not match the signal. This involves stored energy of the moving mass and even pressure changes in the box that apply pressure to the cone that does not match input. Saying that the output of the speaker resonated the floor which in turn then vibrated the speaker is like saying that the air pressure in the room came back on the cone and exerted a new force on the cone that in turn the servo system had to dampen out. That takes a lot of SPL in the first place and secondly it still is and always will be a tiny fraction of what the speaker itself is producing.

I think the isol8r does work across the entire frequency range. The difference it made with my 10" sealed sub (crossed over around 50 Hz) was remarkable... it was cleaner and it stopped the bass output from resonating objects in the room, and I think they would be very effective all the way down to 20 Hz. The bass is not canceled out, what is canceled out is distortion.

The isol8r stands allow quite a bit of movement on the horizontal plane, the initial spring rate is very low and there is almost no stiction whatsoever. On the horizontal plane they feel like they are floating or suspended by a rope from the ceiling and there is quite a bit of movement allowed.

The results were not what I expected and before I tried them I think I would have agreed with everything you are saying... but the way they work are not very intuitive, to me at least. I'd encourage anyone to try these things. The results are very interesting... they are relatively cheap and I'm sure they would be returnable if you don't want them. Honestly, I'd be very interested to see what you have to say about them if you tried a set out. Or just for the subs, but they will clean up the midrange a good bit on full range speakers too. I started out with just a sub stand and after 30 seconds of hearing what it did I was on the web ordering more for my main speakers. These are one of the best "tweaks" I've ever done.


Folsom

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #28 on: 14 Aug 2014, 05:41 am »
Danny... who says if you figure it out you can't one up them?  :thumb:

Danny Richie

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #29 on: 14 Aug 2014, 01:33 pm »
Good info Dave. I will look into them myself.

DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #30 on: 14 Aug 2014, 04:39 pm »
Cool... nothing to lose except some time  :green:

Now where did Herbie go, would like to hear his views and what products he has that might be similar?

Herbie

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #31 on: 14 Aug 2014, 04:46 pm »
Hi, Dave. Please feel free to browse our website. Though we don't make racks or speaker stands, we have a comprehensive lineup of isolation and vibration-control products for use all throughout the audio system.

Herbie's Audio Lab

Steve Herbelin
Herbie's Audio Lab

Folsom

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #32 on: 14 Aug 2014, 05:11 pm »
Maybe it's just me, but I want to smell collaboration... who here isn't attracted to the idea of some enhancements to GR drivers/speakers and or new ones?

DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #33 on: 14 Aug 2014, 05:15 pm »
Hi, Dave. Please feel free to browse our website. Though we don't make racks or speaker stands, we have a comprehensive lineup of isolation and vibration-control products for use all throughout the audio system.

Herbie's Audio Lab

Steve Herbelin
Herbie's Audio Lab

Thanks. I'd bet you'd make racks and stands that would work very well if you did choose to offer them...  :wink:

bdp24

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #34 on: 15 Aug 2014, 02:28 am »
The claims of coupling versus decoupling for the same type product have been going back and forth for years, ever since the Mod Squad Tiptoe was introduced. A product like the Herbie Footer, with both coupling from the spike and decoupling from the absorbtive material, seems like a compromise to me, giving up a little coupling (from the very slight "give" of the material) to get a little damping. Not necessary or desirable in a subwoofer, but perhaps a reasonable trade-off for speakers. Like Danny says, the amount of damping involved is miniscule in relation to the amount of vibration going on in a speaker cabinet. The concept of keeping the cabinet absolutely immovable (coupled the terra firma), against which the driver(s) move (which is what produces sound), seems like the way to go to me. You don't want the cabinet to move AT ALL in response to driver movement, and coupling the cabinet to the floor obviously promotes it's immovability. You don't want any decoupling between the drivers and the cabinet for the same reason.

Herbie

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #35 on: 15 Aug 2014, 03:06 am »
That's all well and good. Problem is, spiking or coupling to the floor does not achieve immovability. Often achieves some glare and harshness, though.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #36 on: 16 Aug 2014, 01:05 am »
My experience is the same as Steve's as well.

Steve, I was checking out your website and the big fat dots look like they would be your primary speaker isolation product?

I like the chart in the link below showing frequency vs attenuation, as Danny said it's frequency dependent but there's still attenuation at low frequencies... 16 dB at 20 Hz is significant.

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm#bigfat

The way the isoacoustics stands are designed you might get a more linear attenuation as there is a lot of horizontal compliance at low spring rates, but it requires taking up a lot more vertical space... the sub stands are the lowest and they are 5". The design wouldn't work right with a lower stand height. A product like the Big Fat Dots is only 1/4" thick and could be incorporated in existing setups a lot easier than a 5" tall stand.

Herbie

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #37 on: 16 Aug 2014, 01:45 am »
Hi, Dave. Big Fat Dots are a solid mass of dBNeutralizer material, which is the basis of all our loudspeaker isolation products except Soft Fat Dots. Big Fat Dots are primarily recommended as an interface (whether you consider it coupling or decoupling) between speaker and stand or platform.

Between floor standing speakers and floor, the various Gliders are our primary product (Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders being the most popular). In addition to cleaning up some of the sonic anomalies caused by unwanted micro-vibration, being able to move the speakers easily when needed is a plus. Makes it easy to toe-in or toe-out to tune in the best stereo imaging and soundstage, and otherwise fine-tune speaker placement for best acoustical interaction with the listening environment.

One thing that's not commonly understood about subs is that high-frequency and even very high-frequency acute micro-vibrations adversely affect driver bass response, definition and linearity. Big Fat Dots (on bare floor) or Giant Fat Gliders (on bare or carpeted floor) are great at helping to bring out more of the best inherent potential of subs.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

San Marcos

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #38 on: 17 Aug 2014, 03:47 pm »
Problem is, spiking or coupling to the floor does not achieve immovability.

How does spiking to concrete not achieve immovability?

Herbie

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #39 on: 17 Aug 2014, 05:15 pm »
Spikes don't drain all of a cabinet's vibration and it's a mistake to dismiss concrete floorborne vibrations as nonexistent, miniscule or inconsequential. Though concrete floors vary in their capacity to convey micro-vibrations, they are structures of steel/concrete that transmit aggressive, acute micro-vibrations readily, as most rigid materials do. Concrete floors all have a natural frequency and reverberant tendencies. Simply walking on a concrete floor induces vibration. Hospitals know this, and that is why they must specially treat concrete floors to minimize vibrations in labs where sensitive equipment like optical scanners are used. At least several optical scanning laboratories use Herbie's Audio Lab products to isolate (and decouple) equipment from vibration, including concrete floorborne vibrations. These products (Extra-Thick grungebuster Dots, Fat Dots, Tenderfoot isolation feet and Soft Fat Dots) do not isolate equipment from gravity and the whole physical world--they isolate and decouple just in the vibrational environment they are dealing with. These are largely vibrations you cannot feel or readily detect, yet like ants at a picnic are virtually everywhere.

I believe most loudspeakers are every bit as sensitive as optical scanning equipment. Floorborne vibrations do not have the inertia necessary to cause a dead-still loudspeaker driver to exert an audible sound. Though miniscule compared to the energies a loudspeaker driver generates, floorborne micro-vibrations have plenty of acute energy to affect the movement of moving drivers. Speaker drivers produce myriad musical frequencies simultaneously, some extremely low-amplitude and nuanced, some having less inertia than external vibrations they are competing with, many below the RFI noise level. Most of these extremely low-amplitude musical signals help to define the ambience and real-life presence of the original recorded event. Though it's perhaps David versus Goliath, floorborne vibrations cause audible anomalies in the music.

Even mega powerful bass frequencies can be affected by tiny floorborne vibrations. Scoping a single wave form will reveal nothing out of kilter, but by superimposing in real-time, the effects of micro-vibrations can be seen by the wave forms jittering, bending or wavering. Seems that battering a mighty, 40 Hz wavelength 40,000 times a second with an itty-bitty 40 kHz vibration can take an audible toll.

Loudspeakers spiked to the floor, whether hardwood or concrete, generate floorborne vibrations, some of which will reverberate right back up the spikes and cabinet the way they came. This is a measurable phenomenon. Speakers are also subject to floorborne vibrations from a multitude of other sources. You don't want your speakers coupled to these vibrations. Subwoofers coupled to the floor generate floorborne vibrations detrimental to floorstanding full-range speakers, and vice-versa.

Spiking to the floor is of course better than nothing. A loudspeaker cabinet just sitting on a bare floor or carpet with nothing in-between is relatively unconstrained, free to wobble and vibrate from its own energies. Placing speakers on rubbery resonating materials causes all kinds of anomalies like loss of dynamics and linearity. Spiking, even with its drawbacks, holds the speaker more firmly and more stable. A resonance-controlled compliant material with an intimate grip on the cabinet bottom--or, something like ISO-L8R--can do even better. This has been accomplished thousands of times with dBNeutralizer-based products replacing spikes for an audibly superior result--scarcely ever the other way around.

I think for the majority of audio systems and music lovers, spikes are fine and more than sufficient. Upgrading some of the components' interconnects might be all that's needed to achieve a decent quality of listening. For the more discerning listener, however, you can do better. You don't need "golden ears" or anything to appreciate a higher-level listening experience.

Whatever the method applied, minimizing the effects of floorborne vibrations on loudspeakers and subwoofers is audibly beneficial and substantially worthwhile.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab