Compromise

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 2080 times.

robcentola

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 301
Compromise
« on: 14 Jul 2014, 06:42 pm »
Ok, still trying to figure this out. It's pretty much a no-go with panels and corner bass-traps as per my better half. Now that I'm upgrading my speakers, I have created more urgency to "fix" my room. So, heavy sound absorbing curtains come to mind. I can hopefully tame the room with them and keep my wife happy at the same time.

I've been googling, but I thought I would ask you guys for any recommendations. Do proven and effective curtains like this exist? Will just regular think curtains help?

Photon46

Re: Compromise
« Reply #1 on: 14 Jul 2014, 07:02 pm »
What sort of problems are you trying to fix? If the room has a bit of ringing and "slap" echo, heavy drapes can help a bit. Light weight drapes aren't going to do much if anything in my experience. If you're trying to address the near ubiquitous lower bass anomalies, curtains are useless, you must address that with bass trapping. You can use strategically placed bookshelves loaded with books of different thicknesses to create effective diffusion. Have you tried running the idea of art prints on bass traps by your significant other? There are many companies that do this, here's one: http://www.acoustimac.com/bass-traps/acousticart-bass-traps/

robcentola

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 301
Re: Compromise
« Reply #2 on: 14 Jul 2014, 07:29 pm »
I really don't have the experience to tell you exactly what the problem is. I can tell you the first reflection on one side is glass and the other stretches into the kitchen about 20 ft. There's also a huge peak that goes from 8ft to about 18ft and it's not symmetrical from speaker position; meaning the right side, the ceiling is 8ft and the left it's 18ft (if that makes any sense)

It just sounds out of control with the bass and the highs seem a bit harsh. I find myself turning it up to higher levels for casual listening to overcome some of these deficiencies.

There's kind of a problem with panels because of the windows. I was thinking of getting some with hooks and hanging them while listening, or maybe some with stands. However, I THINK curtains would help a bit, but maybe I'm wrong.

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10744
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Compromise
« Reply #3 on: 14 Jul 2014, 08:08 pm »
You must define the problem to have any hope in solving it.

Non-symmetrical rooms have acoustic advantages but being "non-standard" there aren't cook book recipes available. Recommend you read Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction" as a wonderful primer for how speakers work in rooms. In it Toole teaches that EQ is of little use. And except for the sloped ceiling his listening (apparent living) room doesn't seem much different from your's.

To really learn your room would require a microphone and test tones.

But IMO the best room is one dedicated to use as you wish (a man cave). For A/V that means enjoying what you want, when you want, and at the volume you want.  All else is secondary.
« Last Edit: 17 Jul 2014, 10:11 am by JLM »

jimtranr

Re: Compromise
« Reply #4 on: 14 Jul 2014, 08:59 pm »
Rob, our rooms are very different ceiling-wise (mine's at 7'8" and flat throughout), but my right side's first reflection point is window glass. The left side's is painted drywall up to 40" above the floor, then a large opening (think "huge pass-through") above that into the kitchen. At that left reflection point there's a lowboy bookcase that reaches up to just about 4" below the opening into the kitchen. The books are varied in height, width, and depth. Here's a graphic look at that section of the room (the boxes labeled "SE-3" are the floorstanding speakers):



In order to get effective first-reflection point control I had to place floorstanding 2'W x 4'H x 4"D (5.25" total depth) acoustic panels (GIK 244's in this instance, denoted by the black-bordered burgundy rectangles) in front of the both the window and the bookcase. I had tried three-foot-high cylindrical traps at those locations previously, but it became obvious in listening comparisons that in my situation, at least, trapping to at least four feet above the floor was essential in front of the window. The depth of the trap in that location (and the audible "cleanup" it provided in that area) suggests to me that if curtains are your only esthetic option, then "thick" is what you need there for as-close-to-optimum control as you can achieve. I'd note, however, that the panel trap in that location is light enough to be picked up and moved out of the room when I'm not listening "seriously" (though I haven't had to resort to that yet--the sonic improvement my better half heard with it in place was sufficient to persuade her that it should stay there).

The same height consideration applies on the left part-wall-part-opening side. With the four-foot-tall panel trap in place, there was immediately discernible improvement in soundstage presentation, image localization, rendering of detail, and reduction or elimination of glare over what could be heard with either the filled bookcase in place by itself (which I'd rank "good") or the three-foot-high cylindrical trap in front of it ("better"). I suspect that the increased width of coverage afforded by the panel versus the cylindrical trap is also a factor in the perceived improvement.

Since rooms vary so much, I offer this simply as descriptive (as opposed to prescriptive). And I'd second the suggestion to consider art-printed traps as a possible workaround.

Jim

guf

Re: Compromise
« Reply #5 on: 14 Jul 2014, 09:01 pm »
I have no experience with this http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page9/page10/page10.html but something to look into.

One option is just get the room treatments and once the better half hears the difference she'll understand why you had to put your foot down and disobey direct orders.  :)  And/or put them up for listening sessions and then put them away.  It's like a kid putting his toys away when he's done playing.

My experience was the corners and back wall with bass traps made a huge difference.  The first reflection points not as much. I'm pretty sure the experts are going to say the heavy drapes are not the way to go and may dull the highs instead of cleaning them up.
« Last Edit: 15 Jul 2014, 06:55 am by guf »

robcentola

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 301
Re: Compromise
« Reply #6 on: 14 Jul 2014, 09:04 pm »
You must define the problem to have any hope in solving it.

Non-symmetrical rooms have acoustic advantages but being "non-standard" there aren't cook book recipes available. Recommend you read Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction" as a wonderful primer for how speakers work in rooms. In it Toole teaches that EQ is of little use. And except for the sloped ceiling doesn't seem much different from your room.

To really learn your room would require a microphone and test tones.

But IMO the best room is one dedicated to use as you wish (a man cave). For A/V that means enjoying what you want, when you want, and at the volume you want.  All else is secondary.


I tried to convert an extra bedroom to a listening room so I cold have my way with it, but no go. We like to entertain and she's all about the music too- just not enough to let me tack panels all over the place ;)

I really do need to invest, and learn how to use the software (REW?)

Thanks for your input. I'll get there!

robcentola

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 301
Re: Compromise
« Reply #7 on: 14 Jul 2014, 09:09 pm »
I have no experience with this http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page9/page10/page10.html but something to look into.

One option is just get the room treatments and once the better half hears the difference she'll understand why you had to put your foot down and disobey direct orders.  :)  And/or put them up for listening sessions and then put them away.  It's like a kid putting his toys away when he's done playing.

My experience was the corners and back wall with bass traps made a huge difference.  The first reflection points not as much. I'm pretty sure the experts are going to say the heavy drapes are no the way to go and may dull the highs and not clean them up.

Thanks!

I need to experiment and stop thinking and talking about it.  Just do it.

BTW, she thinks it sounds great, and it does, but I KNOW it can sound better. I don't have the audio vocabulary to describe it, but I'm positive it will sound better with treatments.

Oh yeah, Guf. I ended up deciding on the Veracity ST's. What the hell. Now I'll be half way to SS8's! Ha.

robcentola

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 301
Re: Compromise
« Reply #8 on: 14 Jul 2014, 09:10 pm »
Rob, our rooms are very different ceiling-wise (mine's at 7'8" and flat throughout), but my right side's first reflection point is window glass. The left side's is painted drywall up to 40" above the floor, then a large opening (think "huge pass-through") above that into the kitchen. At that left reflection point there's a lowboy bookcase that reaches up to just about 4" below the opening into the kitchen. The books are varied in height, width, and depth. Here's a graphic look at that section of the room (the boxes labeled "SE-3" are the floorstanding speakers):



In order to get effective first-reflection point control I had to place floorstanding 2'W x 4'H x 4"D (5.25" total depth) acoustic panels (GIK 244's in this instance, denoted by the black-bordered burgundy rectangles) in front of the both the window and the bookcase. I had tried three-foot-high cylindrical traps at those locations previously, but it became obvious in listening comparisons that in my situation, at least, trapping to at least four feet above the floor was essential in front of the window. The depth of the trap in that location (and the audible "cleanup" it provided in that area) suggests to me that if curtains are your only esthetic option, then "thick" is what you need there for as-close-to-optimum control as you can achieve. I'd note, however, that the panel trap in that location is light enough to be picked up and moved out of the room when I'm not listening "seriously" (though I haven't had to resort to that yet--the sonic improvement my better half heard with it in place was sufficient to persuade her that it should stay there).

The same height consideration applies on the left part-wall-part-opening side. With the four-foot-tall panel trap in place, there was immediately discernible improvement in soundstage presentation, image localization, rendering of detail, and reduction or elimination of glare over what could be heard with either the filled bookcase in place by itself (which I'd rank "good") or the three-foot-high cylindrical trap in front of it ("better"). I suspect that the increased width of coverage afforded by the panel versus the cylindrical trap is also a factor in the perceived improvement.

Since rooms vary so much, I offer this simply as descriptive (as opposed to prescriptive). And I'd second the suggestion to consider art-printed traps as a possible workaround.

Jim


Thanks Jim. You've definitely given me a lot to think about.

MarvinTheMartian

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 132
Re: Compromise
« Reply #9 on: 14 Jul 2014, 09:32 pm »
This DIY AVS thread was my saving grace ... sorry for leading you out of the Circle, my bad, but it's that good.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1316623-diy-custom-printed-movie-poster-acoustic-panels-cheap.html

I ended up with 8 stylistic photos (2'x4'x4" OC703)  rather than movie posters, maybe ceiling soffits next,  hopefully, if I make enough dinner reservations.
Shawn

Photon46

Re: Compromise
« Reply #10 on: 15 Jul 2014, 12:17 am »
I'd second Guf's advice to check out the Spatial Computing Black Hole as a possible help for your bass problems. That is the only other way to address bass problems other than bass traps I'm aware of. I have one of them in my listening room and I don't know if my experience has any applicability to your situation. Before adding the Black Hole, my room was treated with Gik acoustic corner bass traps and two bass traps on the walls behind the speakers. Those, combined with a basically good room to begin with, measured flat to within 6-7 db. up to 1000 hz. I bought a Black Hole hoping that it would tame the last bit of response anomalies. However, I am unable to install the Black Hole as advised on Spatial's website (they advise installing BEHIND the listening seating area.) I have to install it parallel to my listening seat in a corner. While the Black does correct the room response another 2-3 db., I just don't hear it as a major improvement in my room. Others who are able to install it as the manufacturer advises (behind the listening seat.) report more positive and dramatic results. (They also had more overt acoustic problems than I had.) Read over their installation advice and see if you think it looks like a possible fit for your situation. The rather blah review that 6Moons did of the Black Hole was another example of someone being unable to install it as advised by the manufacturer. Like all things in the realm of acoustic room correction, you have to address the problem correctly and the Black Hole isn't a one size fits all corrective.

robcentola

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 301
Re: Compromise
« Reply #11 on: 15 Jul 2014, 10:04 am »
Thanks to all for the informative replies.

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10744
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Compromise
« Reply #12 on: 15 Jul 2014, 04:26 pm »
The Black Hole is a compact/cheaper alternate to the swarm (search Audio Circle, also discussed at length in "Sound Reproduction") solution.  As per Toole the Black Hole would have to be located at the far end of the room from the speakers in order to work as intended. 

Note that:

 - Diffusion effectiveness is based on depth of the slots (typically only down to about 1,000 Hz)
 - Absorption is highly dependent on the materials used and again only effective down to around 500 Hz at best
 - EQ can only work at the location the microphone was set up at and should only be used for +/- 5 dB tweaks
 - As users of residental spaces we're used to how they sound, so lots of treatments are normally not needed, even overkill
 - Near-field setup is also very helpful for minimizing room effects
 - Always good to pick the speaker to match the room (size, shape, layout constraints), too many overspend on gear and are "room limited" when it comes to sound quality
« Last Edit: 16 Jul 2014, 09:21 am by JLM »

Rob Babcock

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 9319
Re: Compromise
« Reply #13 on: 16 Jul 2014, 07:36 pm »
Any chance of adding some "stealth" panels?  GIK makes some art panels that don't look like acoustic treatments.

Hipper

Re: Compromise
« Reply #14 on: 16 Jul 2014, 07:58 pm »
I've no experience of the Black Hole technology but the graph they show as evidence of improvement is only 1/3 octave scale and that won't really show any remaining problems at low frequencies.

Rob, could you post pictures or a plan to give us a better idea of what you are dealing with.

For those like me who have a dedicated room and can do what we like, it is very easy to make recommendations to you.  Whatever the situation, the facts are that improvements will by had by good speaker and listening positioning, room treatment, and perhaps a digital equaliser or tone controls.

Would it be possible, say, to move the speakers and chair out when you wish to listen and store them in a practical location at other times? I understand for example that some people put speakers on castors without harming the sound, and even if it did, the improvement from good positioning should outweigh that.

For room treatment, things like bass traps go in corners - wall-wall corners behind the speakers, ceiling -wall corners. These can be large - 41cm square - or triangular, but could be hidden behind curtains. GIK ones come in a range of colours to suit which might make them a feature:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/

GIK have a circle on here where you could ask their advice. Or contact them direct. They are very helpful.

I know there is a healthy scepticism about using equalisers or tone controls but if you can't do anything else, why not? There may be negatives in using EQ (and it can't on its own solve major bass problems) but because of your limited room for manoeuvre I would suggest that any harm would be outweighed by the benefits, so you can enjoy listening to music.

In the end that is all we want.

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10744
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Compromise
« Reply #15 on: 18 Jul 2014, 10:19 am »
I really don't have the experience to tell you exactly what the problem is. I can tell you the first reflection on one side is glass and the other stretches into the kitchen about 20 ft. There's also a huge peak that goes from 8ft to about 18ft and it's not symmetrical from speaker position; meaning the right side, the ceiling is 8ft and the left it's 18ft (if that makes any sense)

It just sounds out of control with the bass and the highs seem a bit harsh. I find myself turning it up to higher levels for casual listening to overcome some of these deficiencies.

There's kind of a problem with panels because of the windows. I was thinking of getting some with hooks and hanging them while listening, or maybe some with stands. However, I THINK curtains would help a bit, but maybe I'm wrong.

Years ago I found acoustical curtains on the net, but as I recall they were of little benefit (would only be effective at mid-treble/treble frequencies) and were fairly expensive (with few decorator choices).  The designer GIK panels would make more sense to me (if you need treatment).

"Out of control bass" sounds like loose/flabby bass which would be due to poor speaker design, placement too close to walls (especially corners), or poorly damping factor on the amp (typical of old tube amps, never solid state).  Placement should be 2 - 5 feet from any walls or major obstructions and if near corners the distances shouldn't be multiples (worst would be 2 ft and 4 ft).  Your room seems plenty big enough that none but the largest speakers would overload the room.  If you were starting to overload the room the energy could be causing something to resonate in the room.  Or maybe you're just not used to having that much bass (many of my audio friends that are into SET amps and single driver speakers are so acclimated to lack of bass that they go slack jawed when they hear 30 Hz).

"Out of control bass" with harsh highs sounds like cheaper, big box speakers that are meant to initially impress with "booming bass and zingy highs" but are fatiguing after long sessions and as time goes on (which with the cost and complexity explains why IMO more don't stay with audio).