[audioengr]

I have modded a couple of DAC's now to add a USB interface and I have become familiar with the freeware tools of choice for ripping CD's:
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

and for playback:
http://www.foobar2000.org/

When I compare playback of my reference tracks (ripped and played-back using the above tools) through my reference Transport to those played back using a Laptop and a USB interface (using the same DAC), I notice some obvious differences:

1) The dynamics are definitely more intense using the USB interface
2) The image focus and clarity are on-par - not much difference
3) Piano tones are more melodic using the Sony Transport, but maybe not as live
4) Attack, sustain and decay seem a little more correct using the USB - superb bells
5) Image is a bit deeper using the Transport

Some tracks just sound fantastic with the USB interface and others are so intense that you must drop the volume a few dB's to be equal to the intensity of the Transport, at least using Foobar2000.  I would like to try several different S/W players to determine which one delivers both the magic of the Sony Transport and improved dynamics.  

Finally, a Transport that challenges the Sony 7700, and it's a computer.

[geofstro]

Im a bit confused. Is your PC recognising the DAC as a USB audio device in place of a sound card?

I think this must be the case, otherwise you'd just be running the digital output from your sound card to the dac and there wouldn't have been any need to mod the dac.

Foobar 2000 comes with A LOT of options. I would experiment with some of these before evaluating other players.

I'm thinking of the built in upsamplers (and their different options) as well as the different output options, principally.

geoff

[dave_c]

Make sure to use either Kernel Streaming or ASIO to avoid the Windows mixer when using Foobar.  I found that I had to use the ASIO4All driver to get it to work with the Transit.

I tried using the SSRC upsampler in Foobar, but the Monarchy upsampler didn't like it.  It was distorted and jumpy.  I'm not sure if it was a latency issue or if it was just that the Monarchy didn't like the 24/96 signal.  In either case, I wasn't compelled to figure it out at the time.  Maybe I'll go back and take a look.

[sunshinedawg]

I would like to try several different S/W players to determine which one delivers both the magic of the Sony Transport and improved dynamics.

I have tried several of the different players: foobar, windvd, powerdvd, musicmatch, wmp and winamp.  I've found that there isn't much difference.  This of course must be taken with a grain of salt because my stock Sonica is awful.

What I have found that IS important, is driver/software combos that are bit perfect.  The Sonica with the 1.2.0.5 driver is bit perfect in winamp with the waveout.dll output.  It is also bit-perfect on foobar, again with 1.2.0.5 driver but this time works with waveout.dll, directsound and kernal streaming. These are all running windoze XP home.

I'm not sure how the Transit works with different drivers/outputs/players.  I don't know what card your using, but getting it to be bit perfect will really help i think.

[CSMR]

Make sure to use either Kernel Streaming or ASIO to avoid the Windows mixer when using Foobar.  I found that I had to use the ASIO4All driver to get it to work with the Transit.

The Transit bypasses kmixer, so waveout and ASIO, foobar, WMP, etc. (without DSP) should give the same output. I tested myself for bit-perfectness using Rightmark with a digital loop.

[audioengr]

Im a bit confused. Is your PC recognising the DAC as a USB audio device in place of a sound card?

I think this must be the case, otherwise you'd just be running the digital output from your sound card to the dac and there wouldn't have been any need to mod the dac.

Foobar 2000 comes with A LOT of options. I would experiment with some of these before evaluating other players.

I'm thinking of the built in upsamplers (and their different options) as well as the different output options, principally.

geoff

Yes, I install a USB audio interface in the DAC.

I will experiment today with Foobar.  The others that I have tried recently are WMP and REAL, both not as good as Foobar.

[audioengr]

Make sure to use either Kernel Streaming or ASIO to avoid the Windows mixer when using Foobar.  I found that I had to use the ASIO4All driver to get it to work with the Transit.

I tried using the SSRC upsampler in Foobar, but the Monarchy upsampler didn't like it.  It was distorted and jumpy.  I'm not sure if it was a latency issue or if it was just that the Monarchy didn't like the 24/96 signal.  In either case, I wasn't compelled to figure it out at the time.  Maybe I'll go back and take a look.

Is Kernel Streaming an option with Foobar?

The DAC that I am using (Meridian 566) indicates no sampling rate at all.  The PC may be outputting 48 kHz.

[audioengr]

I have tried several of the different players: foobar, windvd, powerdvd, musicmatch, wmp and winamp.  I've found that there isn't much difference.  This of course must be taken with a grain of salt because my stock Sonica is awful.

What I have found that IS important, is driver/software combos that are bit perfect.  The Sonica with the 1.2.0.5 driver is bit perfect in winamp with the waveout.dll output.  It is also bit-perfect on foobar, again with 1.2.0.5 driver but this time works with waveout.dll, dir ...

There are definitely differences.  2 years ago, I tried a Sony laptop which had several players on it, including the premium REAL player.  The others didn't hold a candle to the REAL playback, even of .wav files.  Now, I think the Foobar2000 is even better than the REAL player.

[sunshinedawg]

Have you got the output from the USB bit-perfect yet?

[dave_c]

Kernel Streaming is an option in Foobar.  

Foobar2000 -> Preferences -> Playback -> Output

The Output menu should have the different ouput methods as submenu's.  You can configure Kernel Streaming to use the appropriate sound card, then use the Output drop down to select Kernel Streaming.  

Again, I had to use ASIO4All with my laptop / transit combo.  Kernel Streaming would not work.

The Transit bypasses kmixer, so waveout and ASIO, foobar, WMP, etc. (without DSP) should give the same output. I tested myself for bit-perfectness using Rightmark with a digital loop.

Of course if this is true then it doesn't really matter.  I believe KMixer resamples to 48khz.  

Check out this forum for all your foobar2000 needs:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=f31d964dfde1077e84c315f11f41a734&showforum=28

Also, I highly recommend Collumns UI and plisk format string.  Makes Foobar2000 soooo much more user friendly.

[geofstro]

The reason I asked if your DAC is being used as a USB audio device is that, I believe, this does mean you need to select an ASIO driver under the output panel in Foobar.

If you use ASIO4All, for example, you would choose that option and there should be some settings for ASIO4ALL showing up under Foobar. Not all options are available from within Foobar for ASIO4ALL, though.

When you install AIO4ALL it installs a control panel, where you can set certain options. You can force 16 bit/44khz, for example, and you may need to do this to get bit perfect output.

I had to set KS buffers to max and buffer size to 512 with the other options left unchecked in the control panel. I'm outputting Coax S/PDIF from a soundcard, so your settings may differ.

The good news is that you will be bypassing Windows KMIXER which screws with the sound.

Hope it helps

geoff

[audioengr]

Have you got the output from the USB bit-perfect yet?

Yes, I believe it is, using EAC.

[sunshinedawg]

This easiest way to test bit-perfect is to play one of these DD or DTS encoded .wav files with your usb card to a DD/DTS capable receiver.  If you're bit-perfect you will hear music, otherwise you will get static(means kmxier is messing with the signal).

[dave_c]

I tried the DD file, but it didn't work for me, it just skipped and distorted, kind of like enabling the SSRC upsampler.  I think its because on the M-Audio control panel, there’s a DD/DTS passthrough option, but when that’s selected Foobar Returns this error “error opening foo_asio_dll”.  I guess ASIO doesn’t work with the DD/DTS passthrough.  I think otherwise that I’m getting a bit perfect out.  Is there another way to check on this?

[sunshinedawg]

I don't think it will work with your upsampling Monarchy.  The point of the test is to see if windows/kmixer is messing with the digital signal.  Once you go thru the DIP, the panny won't be able to decode the DD/DTS wav file because of the upsampling and you won't know if you are bit-perfect or not. What you would have to do is use a stock Transit from your pc directly into the panny to test for bit-perfect.  That is why I am really practicing bit-perfectness (wow did I just make that word up!)   with my Sonica now, once I get the Monarchy, I won't be able to know.  I guess I should get a spare Sonica for testing purposes,  I only paid $30 on ebay for mine.

All of this is what I was trying to tell Steve.  Just because you have a perfect rip with EAC doesn't mean that the Transit is outputing a bit-perfect signal.  I think he will be pleasantly surprised if this is the case and he can figure out how to get the transit bit-perfect! I think it will sound even better!

[dave_c]

Yeah I understand the whole point about being Bit perfect.  I believe that I am bit perfect coming out of Foobar, to the transit and finally to the Monarchy.  As long as its perfect to that point, I think I'm in good shape.  The only problem is that I can't verify it.

[sunshinedawg]

Ok, we are on the same page.  You are in good shape if you think you are bitperfect up to the monarchy.  The only way to verify is with a Stock Trransit.

You have the newsest Monarchy model, right? I'm getting itchy and there haven't been any used for sale.

[audioengr]

Not sure about bit-perfect, but when I play back 16/44.1 it sounds almost identical to my reference transport.  Maybe a tad more clear and dynamic.

On the other hand, when I specify 24/96 from the laptop, the sound even through my P-3A upsampling DAC is incredible.  Like getting new speakers.  When I mod one of these for myself, I am only going to do the 24/96.  I will definitely do this at the show in Las Vegas next year.

I have been thinking about interfacing USB to the P-3A.  I think I may be able to do an I2S interface to the P-3A and skip the 8420 upsampling receiver.  Some of my customers have old transports that output I2S or they use the P-1A with I2S to the P-3A and this works very well.  If I can do the I2S interface, the asynchronous upsampling in the P-3A will be avoided and I can still send it 24/96 data from the laptop.  This is a unique feature in the P-3A.  It can select from coax input or I2S.

[dave_c]

Steve you sound like a kid in a candy store!  

I haven't been able to get the 24/96 output to work with the monarchy.  Where have you been enabling those settings?

[TheChairGuy]

Quite new to the PC-as-audio crowd, I haven't used my laptop for anything but (generally poor) headphone listening on the road.

But, I just bought a little gizmo from Turtle Creek (Audio Advantage Micro) for $26-odd that plugs into the USB and terminates into a 1/8" headphone jack, or with an adaptor, a toslink output.

As a headphone out, it improves the nasty performance of stock headhone out of the laptop (emachines M5310).

As an optical output, using a glass toslink, either thru my Empirical Audio modded Sony 7700/MSB Gold Link DAC or direct into the JVC RX-ES1sl, the effect was something far less than magic...using both Winamp and Windows Media Player.

I saw mention here of Foobar and, hoo-haa, what a difference!  So much cleaner, more dynamic that the others, and it seems like less power draw on the Lithium battery, to boot.  It's still not up to the standards of the whole transport/DAC shebang (with my particular set-up), running thru analog ins, but it sure does give you a glint of what's on the horizon.

Thanks for this tip, guys!  I'm a believer in the future synergy of PC and hi-end audio now.