The turntable that would make a digital audiophile convert back to analog?

thunderbrick · « **Reply #80 on:** 23 Jun 2014, 03:32 am »

The better question might be, what vinyl album would change a vinyl-hater's opinion of the "superiority" of CDs?

For my wife it was Enya on LP vs. CD, on DQ-10s, an old SOTA TT with a Sumiko Blue Point Special.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #81 on:** 23 Jun 2014, 10:56 am »

A very fine choice from all I've been able to read. I had DQ10's some years back. Physically time aligned drivers on individual baffles no bigger than they had to be accept for the enclosed 10" bass driver. Very intimate listening experience t'was. Ran em with some Kenwood LO7 150w mono amps.

HsvHeelFan · « **Reply #82 on:** 23 Jun 2014, 12:55 pm »

For me, there isn't a turntable that will get me back to vinyl. It's just not happening. Once I could hear Beethoven's 6th Symphony on CD, I was hooked and this was in the spring of 1984. No snap, crackle, pop or hiss. No skipping. Nothing but the orchestra.

I've got a direct drive turntable up in the attic. I haven't thought about getting it down and doing anything with it in at least 10 years.

If I did, I'd need to get a stylus for the Ortofon OM-10 cartridge that's in it.

I respect all of you that enjoy vinyl. I'm glad you do, but I'm really, REALLY, happy with my current setup. Could I improve my system? Absolutely! But, it would take a different pre-amp and 2 new main speakers and subwoofers. I do know what my "audio nirvana" system is, I'm just not there yet, but I'm close.

HsvHeelFan

thunderbrick · « **Reply #83 on:** 23 Jun 2014, 01:09 pm »

Quote from: HsvHeelFan on 23 Jun 2014, 12:55 pm

For me, there isn't a turntable that will get me back to vinyl. It's just not happening. Once I could hear Beethoven's 6th Symphony on CD, I was hooked and this was in the spring of 1984. No snap, crackle, pop or hiss. No skipping. Nothing but the orchestra.

HsvHeelFan

Nothing but the orchestra? Wait 'til you hear a Reiner shaded dog on a good system. In the 80s I read all the vinyl reviews in TAS and started buying used Shaded Dogs and Mercury Living Presence left and right. Was never really impressed with them until Scott F. dialed in my TT, even through a $100 Project phono preamp.

Now THAT's an orchestra!

I DO have some great CDs. BTW.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #84 on:** 23 Jun 2014, 02:37 pm »

Quote from: geowak on 23 Jun 2014, 01:51 am

Been trying to get through a look at all the TT's suggested here. Some are older models, they would be harder to track down and even harder still to listen to these. The VPI Classic three is starting to look like a strong choice.

If you are considering a budget that high, you might wanna look into the Townshend Rock 7 for a fair bit less.

I have a good buddy who is friends with Dan Meinwald of EAR USA, since childhood. Dan is importer / distributor for Townshend. He tells my buddy it's a terrific deck and he's selling tons of them. (Not marketing blather as my buddy is very happy with his Garrard 301 / Wheaton Triplanar setup, and not in the market.)

Hmmmmm.....many being sold and yet almost never seen on the used market.

I know, I've been searching for it, and I've seen maybe one in past 4 years. Why? Great performance and owner satisfaction is the logical conclusion.

I have no connection to Townsend or EAR USA, financial or otherwise, other than as a potential future customer. Just passing on some insider info. Fringe gear not getting the buzz / hype like the big glamour names is often the result of poor marketing, and not indicative of poor performance. I learned this after owning, and loving, several Kuzma products, and several other lesser names.

PS: Dan says the Rock is stunning with Helius tonearms.

http://www.ear-usa.com/home

lazydays · « **Reply #85 on:** 23 Jun 2014, 04:43 pm »

I never left analog, and kinda laughed at digital music when it took $3K to even buy a payer. Yet I still listen to digital music when I'm hitting the hooch a little too much. But if its a serious set down to listen to something like Bitches Brew, I'm gonna be spinning the table. I've had turntables all the way from a JVC belt drive up to my current favorite; the Acoustic Signature Final Tool. In between we saw (and often endured with) the SL1200's (two or three), high end JVC's, Music Halls. and even a Chinese copy of the Final Tool. Always come back home to the Final Tool. While that quest was going on, I went thru many CD players and several DAC's. Some have (or had) a nice sound, and some just flat sucked! My current favorite is a Jolida, and have used this unit since I bought it new several years ago. There have been several Sony "ES" in the mix and a couple Marantz units as well. Probably own eight or ten decks right now. My favorite CD player would be the Sony 777ES, but alas they are not being made anymore. Even then it won't run with most of the turntables out there if the are set up correctly.

I found a three month old Final Tool that was part of an estate settlement. Bought it for $1250 delivered, but no tone arm. I bought a new Graham Robin and a Denon D160 cartridge. For a phono stage I used a solid state Margalis that left something to be desired. But the system sounded better than any CD player I'd heard (including the Sony 777es). I made a trade with another guy for an SME MK. IV arm, and this got much better. In the mean time I'd had a new phono stage built by AVA that had two inputs, and switched cartridges to a Grado Platinum. Felt my George Wright had a better sound to may taste. Did go back to the AVA couple more times with other cartridges, and still ended up with the Wright each time. While this was going on I came into a new Opera Conscious turntable. Looked like a generic Final tool, but trust me it won't begin to run with the Final Tool. I messed with both for a couple years, often making subtile changes in the setup, and experimenting with drive strings and other strange things. Found noticeable changes by switching from cotton thread (Final Tool) and monofilament fishing line to silk thread and a silk/polyester blend. Then I started a long process of cleaning out the low order feedback, and things really got better. Highs were far more extended with a much tighter bass. Later I broke down the Final Tool, and started back with the Opera again. The motor was junk on a good day, and the spindle bearing and spindle sucked. I rebuilt the entire table except for the motor. Much better sound with the SME arm. I then built a motor isolation pad, and that helped a little bit. I saw an add for a Ginko Cloud that was designed for a VPI HRX. The foot print of the Final Tool and the HRX are similar as well as the weight. Made a nice improvement. Next change will be the new phono stage from Odyssey (somebody send me some money<g>).

While all this was going on, I came into another Technics SL1200 MK.II. This one will eventually get the full set of KAB mods, and a good mono cartridge. It will be dedicated to mono jazz LP's. Still day in and day out the turntable simply smokes the digital music.
gary

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #86 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 12:20 pm »

Analog in its essence is vibration. Digital is bits. Which one more resembles nature do you think. Not that I prefer analog for philosophical reasons. Rather, because it sounds, and feels, more natural to me. Here's an analogy for you. Think of an Andy Warhol painting. Does anyone really like his work? If so, I wonder if they or you listen to classical music. I can admire really good photography. Ansel Adams just blows me away. Man, does he have an eye for structure, but I cannot feel the subject's creation emotionally. This is of most importance to me listening to classical music, music typically made on location. I'm wondering if digital can capture and playback hall ambience as well. I have not put it to the test. That just popped into my head.

JackD201 · « **Reply #87 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 12:38 pm »

Quote from: sunnydaze on 23 Jun 2014, 02:37 pm

If you are considering a budget that high, you might wanna look into the Townshend Rock 7 for a fair bit less.

I have a good buddy who is friends with Dan Meinwald of EAR USA, since childhood. Dan is importer / distributor for Townshend. He tells my buddy it's a terrific deck and he's selling tons of them. (Not marketing blather as my buddy is very happy with his Garrard 301 / Wheaton Triplanar setup, and not in the market.)

Hmmmmm.....many being sold and yet almost never seen on the used market.
I know, I've been searching for it, and I've seen maybe one in past 4 years. Why? Great performance and owner satisfaction is the logical conclusion.

I have no connection to Townsend or EAR USA, financial or otherwise, other than as a potential future customer. Just passing on some insider info. Fringe gear not getting the buzz / hype like the big glamour names is often the result of poor marketing, and not indicative of poor performance. I learned this after owning, and loving, several Kuzma products, and several other lesser names.

PS: Dan says the Rock is stunning with Helius tonearms.

http://www.ear-usa.com/home

I am a Townshend dealer albeit I've never tried any arm with it except the Excalibur. Well, what can I say? It is a very good table. Sound wise I think it is reminiscent of tables like the TD124. Nice rich, full midrange and bass that goes deep and clean. Maybe a bit soft on top at least using a ZYX Airy 3s. The oddly shaped Excalibur shell doesn't allow me to mount cartridges that aren't rectangular. I do think there is one thing that might put off an OCD type of person. It is not very easy to level. It has spring/pneumatic suspension and to level it there is a counterbalance arm that comes out of the left side. You have to set that just right. The strange thing is, the darn thing doesn't seem to mind even if your bubble level resembles one of Cookie Monster's eyes. Well, two things. Even when I had an HRX, I was never keen on screw down clamps. I prefer weighted ones. The Rock 7 uses a screw down clamp and it does sound much better when the clamp is on. At first I thought the silicon trough would be the the weirdest thing. As it turned out, using it becomes second nature after a handful of LPs.

I spotted pics of the gents from EAR using a Rock 7 with the Helius arm. Speakers were by Marten if I recall correctly. I remember wanting to try this arm with the Rock 7 and I still do. The Excalibur was a bear to set VTA up. See there are these three screws…… oh well don't mind me. Spoiled by having VTA on the fly for years and years.

HsvHeelFan · « **Reply #88 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 01:00 pm »

Everything is analog. "Digital" is just a simple conveyance of analog circuits underneath. Go look at the internal circuitry of a Integrated Circuit on something like a Texas Instruments datasheet, whether it's TTL, CMOS, High Speed CMOS or any of the other "Digital" technologies..

In a digital system, the D to A is important, but so is the Analog output stage. Both impact the sound that the system provides.

It's been a long time since I looked at the signal path from a turntable, but I don't think a turntable is taking the analog signal from the stylus and passing it to the rest of your system without modification. It just depends on how the signal is being manipulated. Cartridges manipulate the signal. Op amps manipulate the signal as well as inductors, capacitors and resistors in the signal path. Keep in mind that LCR's don't have to be physical components. The wire and printed circuit boards in the equipment all have inductance, capacitance and resistance built in.

In the end, it's just physics. Listen carefully and trust your ears. There is more than one way to audio nirvana. Both approaches (digital/analog or tubes/solid state) are valid.

HsvHeelFan

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #89 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 01:08 pm »

Jack, I hear you bout cartridge bodies that don't have right angles. What are these manufacturers thinking? That we all have radial tracking arms

?

sunnydaze · « **Reply #90 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 01:59 pm »

Quote from: JackD201 on 26 Jun 2014, 12:38 pm

........ Well, two things. Even when I had an HRX, I was never keen on screw down clamps. I prefer weighted ones. The Rock 7 uses a screw down clamp and it does sound much better when the clamp is on. At first I thought the silicon trough would be the the weirdest thing. As it turned out, using it becomes second nature after a handful of LPs.........

I have been using my Townshend Rock mk3 since 1997. It's the model with the built-in air bladder (i.e., Seismic Sink). It too has the front dampening trough and the screw down clamp. The trough does seem onerous and burdensome at first, but like you say, it quickly becomes easy. I don't mind the screw down clamp, but I've never used a drop-on weighted one. If I had perhaps I'd find the screw clamp a bit cumbersome. I can say it does a great job at flattening warped records and making them nice and tight on the platter.

The Rock is a very innovative design that sounds great, so I would suggest that folks not let the above "issues" exclude it from consideration. IMO, they really are not that big a deal.

JackD201 · « **Reply #91 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 02:34 pm »

Oh definitely. These are little niggles not real performance issues. I'm just saying that these are actually a bit unique to the Rock 7. The spindle for example unlike others has the threads on the clamp and these go inside the spindle. Most have a threaded spindle and the clamp goes over it. Plus and minuses here. The minus is that getting that screw into the hole can be tricky. The plus is, well, how many times have we seen vinyl shavings on our platters with threaded spindles!

Personally, I think these little things add to the charm. Gives the unit a character if you will. I just think there's no harm in people knowing about these little things.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #92 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 02:55 pm »

No argument from me here, Jack. Knowledge is power!

brooklyn · « **Reply #93 on:** 23 Jul 2014, 05:07 pm »

Hi Geowak, I just reread this thread you started back in June. (a good read) I was wondering if you followed
through with a table or put it on the back burner for awhile. I just started looking into getting a vintage turntable or a decent (cheap) quality new one for my apartment system that I’m trying to put together.

Regards,
Brooklyn

geowak · « **Reply #94 on:** 23 Jul 2014, 06:41 pm »

No I have not. There are so many choices, it is hard to narrow it down. Still looking, but I just might get an older belt drive. I always tend to go with tried and true brands, as well.

brooklyn · « **Reply #95 on:** 24 Jul 2014, 03:36 am »

It can be frustrating at times not being sure which direction to go in but thats what part of this hobby is all about. I would like it much better if I could drive to a high end audio store and audition something so I can make an informed decision like I did years ago.

I’ve also been thinking of getting a vintage belt drive turntable so I could listen to some albums at my apartment. My other choice would be a new Pro-ject Debut Carbon with the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, It seems nice and cheap.

If I had to buy a new high end turntable for my home rig right now I would definitely buy another VPI, probably one of the Classic models. They make great turntables right here in the USA and it looks like the company will stay a family run business for years to come.

Hang in there bud, it’s all good…..

jarcher · « **Reply #96 on:** 24 Jul 2014, 01:47 pm »

If your considering getting back into vinyl, would do as those in the know have suggested, which is to get a decent entry level table to start to make sure that you really like it. That is, for some people the physical LP collecting, handling, and the magic it can produce leads them deeper into it. For others, the hassles and frankly the fact that very often many titles simply do not have the vaunted vinyl "magic" sound - same as digital - brings people back to earth with reality. I'm teetering more to the latter even after moving somewhat past the "entry level".

For those reasons, the Project Debut Carbon w/ Ortofon 2M Red really is the way to start. Fortunately these are well enough in demand that if you do decide to move up (or out), you likely could recover 90% of your minor investment. That happened with me an a Project RPM 1.3 - i.e kept the cart, sold the table, recouped 90%, and went on to a VPI. Helped that the RPM 1.3 looked so cool it was an easy sell, but the Debut Carbon is undoubtably a better table.

Short answer : don't sweat it too much & dive in w/ a Debut Carbon / 2M RED combo - you really have little to loose!

Mike Nomad · « **Reply #97 on:** 24 Jul 2014, 03:44 pm »

There is no way I am going back to vinyl. Too much weight to move, too many rituals and too much maintenance associated with playback is time spent not listening to music.

All the effort is for a degenerative process. The wear is real, and audible. The idea that to really get in the groove (pardon the pun), I should be looking at dropping $5-$10 grand on a turntable rig, I find laughable. At that price point, the differences between analog and digital are negligible.

A lot of vinyl spinners go on about how cr@p digital sounds, and then attempt to bound a meta-argument (analog vs. digital) by comparing contemporary vinyl media and playback against Compact Discs. If you want to hate on CD, then for the love of the holey formats we all embrace, kindly decide to make an intelligent, meaningful comparison.

If I were to go back to the beginnings of "vinyl" recording and playback, going 35 years along the timeline puts me barely on this side of mechanical recording. In other words: If you want to compare "vinyl" (analog) playback to CD (digital), and taking the "birth" of CD as 1981 (even though I did not see them on the street until 1983), you would be comparing 78-RPM Acetate-era discs to CD. The idea of today's vinyl being superior to SACD or 24/192 PCM is simply delusional.

Analog and digital both have their own kind(s) of added noise. Like it or not, there is distortion introduced by both, the multiple chains associated with making a recording (recording, mastering, reproduction, playback) and the components of all of the chains used.

The one thing I miss about vinyl: Album art. Beat on digital for killing album art all you want. I'll even hand you the bat.

[Edited to make smaller]

brooklyn · « **Reply #98 on:** 24 Jul 2014, 05:06 pm »

I’m not sure if this was a digital bashing thread, I think it was a the turntable that would make a digital audiophile covert back to analog thread.

That said, there are vinyl or digital purest out there that wouldn’t have anything to do with the other medium but I think
most audiophiles are coexisting with both analog and digital formats like myself, both have there own merits.

If I sold all my vinyl and turntable years ago I probably wouldn’t be getting back into spinning albums to listen to music even though I believe the music that comes from vinyl is more involving and that is my personal opinion and maybe the opinion of all the music listeners that are buying turntables and albums at a huge clip.

If I was getting back into vinyl, I think the Pro-Ject Carbon with the Ortofon 2M red is a great choice and it would leave plenty of money for buying albums. If I wanted to get back into vinyl in a big way, that would require a few thousand bucks and that (I believe) would be more musically involving then (most) of the digital media that’s out there.

geowak · « **Reply #99 on:** 24 Jul 2014, 06:08 pm »

Quote from: brooklyn on 24 Jul 2014, 05:06 pm

I’m not sure if this was a digital bashing thread, I think it was a the turntable that would make a digital audiophile covert back to analog thread.

That said, there are vinyl or digital purest out there that wouldn’t have anything to do with the other medium but I think
most audiophiles are coexisting with both analog and digital formats like myself, both have there own merits.

If I sold all my vinyl and turntable years ago I probably wouldn’t be getting back into spinning albums to listen to music even though I believe the music that comes from vinyl is more involving and that is my personal opinion and maybe the opinion of all the music listeners that are buying turntables and albums at a huge clip.

If I was getting back into vinyl, I think the Pro-Ject Carbon with the Ortofon 2M red is a great choice and it would leave plenty of money for buying albums. If I wanted to get back into vinyl in a big way, that would require a few thousand bucks and that (I believe) would be more musically involving then (most) of the digital media that’s out there.

Thanks jarcher and brooklyn
I think I will check out the Pro-Ject more closely. Also I think many here don't think the analog vs digital needs to be an MMA slugfest. I don't think I should have used the term "convert" on my original post, but rather want to add a TT to my existing digital audio system. I don't want to become an Audio snob, and start calling the digital side "the dark side". All audio is good, that is my weakness.