[jimdgoulding]

in the latest edition of The Absolute Sound.  OMG, look at the photos and tell me WTF!  Most cantilevers are flattened out near their tips.  But, the one illustrated is not, it appears.  If 92 degrees has the back side of the stylus at a right angle with the record surface as it appears in the photos, the tonearm post must be suspended from a trellis or something.  Even if a cantilever tip IS flattened out at its end, to take those photos as gospel cain't be right.  From 90 degrees to 92 degrees typically requires a slight tilting forward of the cartridge body, no?  Which would require some elevation of its other end, its post, at least in most applications. You look at those photos and tell me what I don't know or how those photos got past editing.  Please.  Thanks.

[vinyl_guy]

Jim,
Michael Fremer doesn't write for Absolute Sound. I think the article you are referencing is by Andre Jennings. I haven't read the article yet or looked at the pictures closely to comment on your questions.

Laura

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks, Laura.  I'm looking for the article myself.  Somebody must have read it somewhere.  I think it's very new.

Whoops!  Just found it.  It's by Jonathan Valin and it's "The Andre Jennings Way".  The issue I'm taking issue with is the SRA portion.  Apologies Mr. Fremer.

[vinyl_guy]

It is in the latest issue of Absolute Sound. Received mine last week.

[Wayner]

The SRA in question is an eye catcher, showing the SRA angle from the leading edge of the stylus, rather then from somewhere along the center-line of the stylus as Fremer has shown in the past. If you read the article, the reason for the measurement in this manner is because of a weird stylus design on the Ortofon cartridge in the article. Apparently, the leading edge of the stylus is actually where it is the "fattest", and thus is where the contact area is. It is a poor choice of a cartridge to use as an example, as it is the "exception" rather then the rule when setting for the 92° SRA.

After much tinkering, I have decided that the best place for my ATs is with the arm parallel to the record surface. I think the whole thing is highly debatable.

[jimdgoulding]

I'm pretty much there myself, Wayner.  At the end of the day, whatever the percentage of 92 happens to be, you will ultimately settle on the best sound to your senses.  Besides, 92 degrees is a guide is all.  Can't be the precise same for every cartridge cause of variables.  I can recommend the neighborhood, however, for sure.

[neobop]

The recommendation is not 92o.  It's approx. 1o forward of vertical, but if 2o is approximately 1o, then I guess you'll approximately have it.

For the set-n-forget folks or those with trouble hearing balance and harmonics (Roy Gandy), it's probably a good idea.  If you use a spherical stylus don't worry about it.  The longer the contact area of the stylus, the more critical it is.  With a line contact or micro you could be tracing 2 groove wall undulations simultaneously.  That seems like a bad idea. 

The popularization of this concept dates back to 1980, a time when cutterhead VTA was changing, and styli with greater vertical contact were becoming more popular. 
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/1240.html

neo

[Wayner]

Mr. Fremer and Valin says it's 92°, so go argue with them. Where your 91° comes from, who knows....

BTW, to make the ° sign, it would be (alt) held down and at the same time, type 248.

[neobop]

Mr. Fremer and Valin says it's 92°, so go argue with them. Where your 91° comes from, who knows....

BTW, to make the ° sign, it would be (alt) held down and at the same time, type 248.

I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm telling it the way it is.   If you want to learn where 91° comes from, read the link.  That will answer your statement, "who knows".

"They" say ignorance is bliss.  Ignorance is lack of specific knowledge.  Everyone is ignorant of something to some degree, and some people generally seem more ignorant than others.  The blissful part comes from not knowing one is ignorant.

BTW, thanks for the degree sign.   

[jimdgoulding]

"The blissful part comes from not knowing one is ignorant."  Yer crackin me up, Neo.  Wayner, you are a man of respect plus we share some of the same tastes in music as does Neo.  Seems to me, fellas, it's pointless to disagree over the fine splitting of this hair.  In a blind test, I'd buy dinner for anyone who can nail the difference between one degree four times out of forty.  I don't know of a definitive way to exactly get 91 or 92 degrees spot on.  I'd like to know.  My Radio Shack magnifying glass isn't as strong as you guys, I'm pretty sure.  I believe it's safe to say, however, that I'm in there somewhere.  I dunno what the shape of my stylus tip is.  I'd like to know.  Soundsmith replaced both my cantilever and stylus after I knocked it off and couldn't find it.  I can't help but wonder what digital heads must think about all our fussiness.  The end justifies the means, tho, dunnit.

[Wayner]

Anyone that has run a lathe in shop class knows that if you put the cutting tool exactly at 90° to the work, you will get what is called chatter. So the solution to prevent chatter is to put what is known as a kerf angle to the tool. Think about that for awhile.......

[jimdgoulding]

Wayner, I believe that you are a So Cal resident.  That correct?  If so, I have some live Shelly Manne and Jazz Crusaders records from the 60's to die for.  Three or four Art Pepper's, as well.  "Checkmate" from SM and his superb quintet of the day on Contemporary is, and I don't use this term hardly ever, note perfect.

[blakep]

If you read the article, the reason for the measurement in this manner is because of a weird stylus design on the Ortofon cartridge in the article. Apparently, the leading edge of the stylus is actually where it is the "fattest", and thus is where the contact area is. It is a poor choice of a cartridge to use as an example, as it is the "exception" rather then the rule when setting for the 92° SRA.

Yes. This type of setup would apply to the Ortofon Replicant stylus, also the Soundsmith OCL (the $350 Soundsmith retip as opposed to the $250 retip which is a more traditional stylus).

Not really a big deal, but something to be aware of if you do have a stylus like that-I do.

Drawing below illustrates pretty clearly what is happening with the top one being a typical stylus optimized and the lower being the Replicant or Soundsmith OCL. Color photo shows a real life microscopic shot of the stylus with the green line being the "sight line" for setting SRA. Hope this helps.

[jimdgoulding]

Oh my, this may be of a good dose of help to me.  I had Soundsmith replace my cantilever and stylus on my phono cart with his $350.00 version to include the ruby cantilever.  I set it up like I would have set up most cartridges unbeknownst that the stylus tip angle is, or appears to be in the photo above, different.  I lack strong magnification.  A month or so went by and I managed to knock off the stylus itself.  I hope Soundsmith is still doing his thing cause I would like the stylus replaced.  It's lost in my carpet and I'm using a different cartridge in the interim.  And, when I get it back, kindly correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that the tip is at more of a rake angle because the cantilever is straight and not flattened out at its tip like the $250.00 one.  Thus, my tonearm should be more at an angle from the pillar to the headshell and cartridge itself.  Correct, or no???

[jimdgoulding]

Looking at the blown up photo above, it looks as tho the stylus rake angle is compensated for (green line) and so there should be no radical adjusting of the tonearm.  In Valin's article, you don't see the different shape at its tip as closely nor the green line at all.  Still, a little advice would be appreciated.  Thank you.

[Kenneth Patchen]

Of small importance to the main topic of the discussion but but on a Mac, the degree sign is alt + 0, (i.e., alt+0=º​).

[THROWBACK]

BlakeP

Confucious (or somebody like that) was right: picture worth 1,000 words. I have a Soundsmith Hyperion, so your illustrations were very helpful. Thanks much.

[blakep]

Looking at the blown up photo above, it looks as tho the stylus rake angle is compensated for (green line) and so there should be no radical adjusting of the tonearm.  In Valin's article, you don't see the different shape at its tip as closely nor the green line at all.  Still, a little advice would be appreciated.  Thank you.

Jim: Yes, for the most part I think you are right here. In my setup I end up slightly tail up but it is not anything that I'd describe as extreme. Key thing is to be focused on the tip of the cartridge and the imaginary (in the case of doing your own alignment) green line as opposed to the leading front edge of the cartridge or the upper rear edge.

A decent but cheap 40X illuminated loupe (easily come by on ebay) proves to be pretty helpful with setup if you don't want to go the microscope route, which I have not done.

[jimdgoulding]

Thank you.  Now, get my main cart re-tipped and I'm on it like a duck on a bug.  In the between time, my replacement cart, a original 80's Koetsu, is doing the honors richly.