Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps

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G Georgopoulos

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Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #20 on: 15 Jun 2014, 03:09 am »
That makes a lot of sense come to think about it since the amp sounds different with different power tubes.


Mike

+1 :thumb:

it may be so with different tubes,but the outcome is small as with tube preamps
in my opinion it's how distortion is generated in circuit..

cheers

bdp24

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Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #21 on: 15 Jun 2014, 08:58 am »
   There are way too many issues being conflated here. Tube sound=distortion is a gross over-simplification. Both tube and solid state circuits produce distortion; tube distortion tends to be even-order harmonic, which in even fairly large amounts (say, 1%) is relatively benign to the ear; solid state distortion, on the other hand, is more odd-order, which sounds amusical and unpleasant, even in very small amounts. The whole idea of a tube buffer adding warmth to a cold-sounding system is very un-high fidelity, in my opinion. Components aren't suppose to add ANYTHING to the signal, just amplify it. A perfect pre or power amp, tube or solid state, has NO sound of it's own. The better a pre or power amp is, the harder it is to tell which it is. But one thing is true: different speakers like different amplifiers. Low impedance/efficiency speakers (Maggies, for one) need an amp that delivers current. That is a solid state amp. High impedance/efficiency speakers respond to voltage, which is.....you already guessed. A tube amp. This is, of course, also a gross over-simplification. If a speaker has a wildly varying impedance (the original Quad Electrostatic, but many others), it's impedance will interact with the output impedance of every power amp it is hooked up to, and it's frequency response can be quite different with different amps. Solid state amps have much lower output impedance (i.e. high damping factor), so they react to the speaker's impedance much less than do tube amps, with their generally higher output impedance. This phenomenon is usually greatest at high frequencies, where reactive-load speakers have often have their lowest impedance (the Quad's impedance drops to around 1 ohm up there!). That is also why solid state amps are almost always better at bass reproduction than are tube amps---low output impedance/high damping factor amp driving a low-impedance woofer. John Atkinson always includes the output impedance information in his bench-test results of power amps reviewed in Stereophile.
   Since pre-amps don't react to a speaker's impedance, it is a safer route to use a solid state amp and a tube pre-amp, if you think you need to have tubes in your system to get the sound you want. But some tube power amp/speaker combinations are magical together. Look for a prospective amp's output impedance, and it's prospective speaker mate's impedance, then try them together. For a pre-amp, listen to your source with and without the prospective pre's in the signal path. The one that degrades the signal least is the better pre-amp, whether tube OR solid state. We don't want to ADD warmth to our systems, we merely want it reproduced if it's in the source material. Right?

Early B.

Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #22 on: 15 Jun 2014, 11:33 am »
We don't want to ADD warmth to our systems, we merely want it reproduced if it's in the source material. Right?

Great comments. But I have a question that I've been wanting to ask for many years -- how can we know how the source material actually sounds? In your example, for example, how would I know if I'm adding "warmth" to my system (whatever that means)? Stated another way, how do I know what a "neutral" component or system sounds like (whatever that means)?

Part of the problem in this hobby is the use of highly subjective terminology. The only thing I know for sure is what I like or don't like when I hear it. I have no objective means of determining if my system is warm, bright, dark, mellow, etc. Even if I was in the studio during the recording and mixing of my favorite music, I would still have difficulty determining if my amp was "neutral" or "warm" or "bright," etc. 


Ericus Rex

Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #23 on: 15 Jun 2014, 11:43 am »
Stated another way, how do I know what a "neutral" component or system sounds like (whatever that means)?


That's a great question that the 'straight wire with gain' proponents can never answer.

HAL

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Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #24 on: 15 Jun 2014, 12:58 pm »
One way to approach that is to record and playback known pieces that you made the recording and monitored the live sound.   Problem becomes aural memory is short.   

nickd

Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #25 on: 15 Jun 2014, 03:37 pm »
This thread is wandering a off subject.

I like tube preamps in front of solid state too. That said, You still need to do your home work. some tube preamps are NOT a good match for solid state amps. If they are poorly designed and don't have a cap or transformer in the output, DC offset will flow right through a DC coupled SS amp melting speaker drivers. (been there done that :()

Some tube preamps are a bit wimpy on the output current and can't drive low input impedance amps.

If you find a quiet, nicely built tube pre with a stiff power supply and and a good all around sound you can afford, the rewards can be worth the trouble. Subtle detail, amazing soundstage, dynamics and amazing tonal "colors" push all my buttons. As good as solid state preamps are getting, you still have to spend a big pile of $$$ to get soundstage and tonal "color" out of one.

I have owned a number of both. The tube preamps seem to leave the best memories. still kicking myself for selling some of them Audio Research SP3A (restored), AR LS5 MKII & III and the most amazing NAT Symmetrical.

There is just something about tube regulation in the power supply that my ears find most believable.

bdp24

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Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #26 on: 15 Jun 2014, 11:12 pm »
You are absolutely correct, Nick. I did indeed neglect to cover the pre output impedance/power input impedance issue. The rule is, the input impedance of the power amp should be at least ten times the output impedance of the pre amp. Tube pre's without cathode followers usually have relatively high output impedances, but Audio Research tube pre's have output impedances of 200 ohms, as low as many solid state pre's. As for how to know if a pre or power amp is adding warmth, or merely reproducing same in the material, it's really not that hard. First, as Hal suggested, make your own recordings (I use an old Revox reel-to-reel and a pair of condenser mics. You can get a Revox for a couple hundred dollars, but even a good cassette recorder will do). Record an acoustic guitar, an unamplified singer, and a drumset. Which pre and/or power amp makes them sound as much like they did live, right in front of you? Now someone will say "But you still don't know for sure what's on the tape". Okay, then we may as well all just give up. C'mon guys; if everything you play on your system has the same amount of warmth, it's not the source material, it's the system, or the room, or both. Listen through headphones to eliminate the room. Take the same recording into hi-fi stores and friends listening rooms, and play it on as many systems as you can. Does the recording have similar amounts of "warmth" (you'll have to decide what that means. I thought it was universally understood) on every system? If yes, it's probably the recording; if no, it's the gear. Which piece (or pieces) of gear? Substitiute pieces until the overly-warm component reveals itself. If you use an overly-warm component to balance out an overly-cold one, you will now have to replace them both as you upgrade your system.

Skiman

Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #27 on: 16 Jun 2014, 08:25 pm »
. Personally, I like preamps to just get out of the way as much as possible and serve as volume adjustment only.

Such as a purely 'passive' preamp.

The type and quality of the volume control can make a difference. For example, I have an Oppo BD105, which has a variable output, and could do away with a preamp entirely. But I prefer using my Dodd tube preamp with a couple of SS monoblock amps.

dBe

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Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #28 on: 16 Jun 2014, 08:56 pm »
That's a great question that the 'straight wire with gain' proponents can never answer.
Even better:  what kind of wire;  copper, silver, gold, platinum, titanium?

Always makes me smile.

FTR: I have never heard a neutral component.  Just sayin'.   8)
« Last Edit: 16 Jun 2014, 11:32 pm by dBe »

bdp24

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Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #29 on: 16 Jun 2014, 10:54 pm »
Even better:  what kind of wire;  copper, silver, gold, platinum, titanium?

Always makes me smile.

FTR: I have never heard a neutral component.  Jusy sayin'.   8)

How about some that are less un-neutral than others? :deadhorse: It's not that tube amps are warm (well, some are), but rather that transistor ones are often cold, dry, and hard. What I value in tube amps (pre and power) is their liquid transparency (in the photographic sense), as opposed to the drier, sometimes grainier sound of transistor amps. Again, sweeping generalities. Also their ability to flesh-out the full body of voices and instruments and reproduce depth and the other sound-staging concerns, which as a benefit helps to make each voice and instrument separate from others and therefore more easily heard in densely packed recordings. The main thing is, the more transparent the speakers, the more you hear the sound of the electronics feeding them. That's one reason why tubes are usually used with non-hybrid Electrostatics (ESLs are extremely transparency), the other being the impedance match between them (pure ESLs usually present a high impedance load to the amplifier, which tube power amps like to see, and at which they have more output power). I use tube power amps with my 16 Ohm ESLs, and transistors with my Magnetic Planars, one pair 4 Ohms, the other 8.
« Last Edit: 18 Jun 2014, 07:07 am by bdp24 »

Hank

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Re: Integrating tube and solid state amps/preamps
« Reply #30 on: 17 Jun 2014, 04:31 pm »
 :weights: +1 to your reply #21, bdp24