[KeithR]

I'll chime in here....

I like the Rowlands very much (they actually have grown on me considerably since I first got them a few weeks ago).  That said, my dealer is going to give me a break on a BAT 51SE/75SE combo in the next few months, and I love that tube amp more than practically anything around for "sane" money (have always wanted it!).  Sure the Tenors and Halcros are better, but the BAT is a superb amp at its 8.5k list.  The Rowlands are "sorta" tubelike, but not quite the liquid nature of the BAT.  I will be giving up bass performance to a degree on the BAT, but audio is compromise.  

As far as the Bryston vs. Rowland-- the Rowland is a more natural sounding amp.  More texture, great sense of instrument separation etc.  Vocals seem at ease.  Of course, the Bryston is much less expensive and a great value for the money.

Regarding Wilson vs. VMPS, they are much different speakers (design, etc.) and depends on application.  Wilson has broader soundstage in a smaller box which is key in my room.  I picked the Sophia over the W/P which isn't quite the value, and haven't thought a bit about changing them out.  I can't stand VMPS looks, which is why they have never been under consideration for me.  Look like coffins to me.  

And yes, Jetsons is a good, good friend of mine.  We have gone through many an audition together and he is very curious on how the BAT integrated (i traded my 31SE for a few months while I raise money for the top of the line BAT combo) performs relative to the separates that have graced my room.

[ctviggen]

Wilsons are nicer looking than VMPS, but VMPS are so much more the value.  Used Wilson Watt Puppies 7.0 are in the 15,000 range.  I like Watt Puppies, but they're a tad overpriced.  I also prefer the adjustability of the VMPS.

[zybar]

I'll chime in here....

I like the Rowlands very much (they actually have grown on me considerably since I first got them a few weeks ago).  That said, my dealer is going to give me a break on a BAT 51SE/75SE combo in the next few months, and I love that tube amp more than practically anything around for "sane" money (have always wanted it!).  Sure the Tenors and Halcros are better, but the BAT is a superb amp at its 8.5k list.  The Rowlands are "sorta" tubelike, but not quite the liquid nature of the BAT ...

Keith,

Well said on the 201's...that is pretty much what I hear in my system.

I haven't heard the more expensive BAT gear, but their "lower priced" gear never did it for me and I woldn't think it would be an improvement over the 201's.  I will need to try and hear the BAT one day.

I would love to find an amp I could afford that mates the best qualities of my 201's with the best qualities of my old Kora Cosmos References - now that would be a killer amp!!

George

[KJ]

John,

Did you ever have the before mentioned shootout?  A lot of people had some great comments on the individual components, but I was looking forward to your review with all the amps side-by-side with the same environment, same speakers, etc.

-KJ

[John Casler]

John,

Did you ever have the before mentioned shootout?  A lot of people had some great comments on the individual components, but I was looking forward to your review with all the amps side-by-side with the same environment, same speakers, etc.

-KJ

Hi KJ,

Sadly to say, the only "shoot out" was the JR201s, the SoA, the Pass X-250.

This was an extremely limited session due to the great number of components involved.

The SoA and the Rowlands were heard on the Onix Ref 3s with the Aragon Preamp.  Comments can be seen in the So CA Circle.

As a dealer I will not comment on the outcome here in two channel, and only commented in the So Cal Circle about the comparison and others comments.

Both are exceptional amps and both had clearly discernable characteristics that could satisfy specific prefernces.

If you have specific questions please ask them in the VMPS forum where there are several AMPzilla dealers (including Brian, Julian and myself) who will offer opinion.

[KJ]

Yikes!  Can't believe I missed all those posts.  Thanks John.

-KJ

[cytocycle]

I keep seeing the sound off's on amps and I'm missing the importance of a quality preamp which in my opinion is the only thing that opens up the quality and textures of these amps.  The last comparison looked like they used an Aragon preamp (which I don't mean to offend but it is definitely not what I would consider the same class as the amplifiers being tested). Thankfully the VMPS speakers are more forgiving than the Wilson's for a harsh front end and that's why I'm bringing this up. (This is my experience since I now own wp7's and preamp choice has been pivotal to the overall experience in my system)  Also the Rowland equipment really benefits running on balanced inputs in my experience (I have used the 201' and own a Rowland Synergy IIi that runs on batteries) (I have owned a ton of preamps.. Audible Illusions L1, CJ Premier 14, Adcom GFP750, Placette Active....etc..)

What associated equipment is going to be used in this comparison?

[John Casler]

I keep seeing the sound off's on amps and I'm missing the importance of a quality preamp which in my opinion is the only thing that opens up the quality and textures of these amps.  The last comparison looked like they used an Aragon preamp (which I don't mean to offend but it is definitely not what I would consider the same class as the amplifiers being tested). Thankfully the VMPS speakers are more forgiving than the Wilson's for a harsh front end and that's why I'm bringing this up. (This is my experience since I now own wp7's and preamp choice has been pivotal to the overall experience in my system) Also the Rowland equipment really benefits running on balanced inputs in my experience (I have used the 201' and own a Rowland Synergy IIi that runs on batteries) (I have owned a ton of preamps.. Audible Illusions L1, CJ Premier 14, Adcom GFP750, Placette Active....etc..)
...

Hi Cyto,

I have a tendency to agree that "preamps" are even more important than amps in the effect they have on music.  I don't know how much experience you have had actually listening to the Aragon Pre, but it is quite good overall.

Your reference to it being harsh...Is that from listening experience?

By the way, if you look at the past listening session, it was done with Onix Refernce 3's and VR Jr's.  We haven't yet done the Wilson/VMPS session.

And what is even more confusing is calling VMPS "forgiving"

Generally a "forgiving speaker" is one which is less accurate and masks the imperfections of many recordings.  I have not found that to be the case.

At this point, we have yet to "compare" the Ampzilla on the VMPS and Sophias.  When we do, (hopefully soon) it will be in two seperate systems with two different preamps (maybe we can change that), but any comparison evaluations will be based on that.

I think the value will be in hearing how the system/amp/speaker combo works overall and how, or if it affects the sound to our preferences.  As well as what qualities are displayed in both systems.

But your point is well made, that any listening experience will be totally dependent on "all" the components, room, and set up of the system, and all assumptions about a component must be taken in that context.

[Mad DOg]

I keep seeing the sound off's on amps and I'm missing the importance of a quality preamp which in my opinion is the only thing that opens up the quality and textures of these amps.  The last comparison looked like they used an Aragon preamp (which I don't mean to offend but it is definitely not what I would consider the same class as the amplifiers being tested).

i agree that the preamp is extremely important. i have also compared the Aragon preamp w/ a various other well regarded preamps and found it to better in many regards. the only preamp i have found to do some things better than the Aurum is the Bent Audio transformer based passive. so while it might not be in the same class as say a Placette active, i've found that it is no slouch either. i would pick the Aragon before I picked the Adcom 750...

Thankfully the VMPS speakers are more forgiving than the Wilson's for a harsh front end and that's why I'm bringing this up. (This is my experienc ...

this comment that VMPS speakers are "forgiving" puzzles me...in my limited experience w/ the 626s w/ the FST tweeter, i have not found them to be very forgiving. in fact, i've found them to be the exact opposite as they were very revealing.

but then again, there are so many things that can affect the sound of a system. room, gear, cabling all add up in the synergy equation...the wrong synergy can make the best component sound wrong in any system.

[cytocycle]

To Clarify my comments

to Mad DOG and John Casler:

My main comment was NOT to say the VMPS is not revealing by saying "forgiving speaker"(should have used "Sounds amazing (ribbons are so smooth) with a wider range of electronics") but to stress that the Wilson can really sound bad with incorrect Solid State Electronics because of how forward and dissecting they can be. I've found that the Sophia's and even the WP7's image more like monitors than the wall of music (you have to go to the Wilson Maxx’s at 40k to get this, or the MG3.6 or MG20.1) the RM40's provide.  

This is why so many people complain about Wilson's being harsh and that is because they have heard some really bad synergy setups.  I was just trying to help with the Wilson setup, so that this after listening thread doesn't turn into another anti-Wilson thread because of a synergy problem. The VMPS are bargains by the way (and with the pots and the damping on the PR you can tailor the sound unlike the Wilson’s)!

To John Casler: Yes, I have listened to an Aragon Pre and Palladium mono-block setup several times over the years... and yes it is leaps and bounds better then the Adcom GFP750 (I owned that for 2hours listening before it went back in the box), my list was in now apparent order. I only made this comment because the Wilson + Aragon synergy didn’t work in my "Listening" experiences.   Audio listening is truly a personal preference sport, and these are my experiences. (Mating preamps with $18k amps can show certain weakness that I didn't notice with my prior sets of $6k amps (ARC D400MkII, SIM W5(synergy didn't work for me), EAD PowerMaster2000).

Background:
I had been looking at new pair of speakers for 3 years(and saving) flying around (with my job) and visiting dealers and fellow audiogoners.  My final decision was between the Wilson Sophia and the RM40's and I choose the WP7's (sold my Audi and bought a cheap Honda to make up the difference) because of three things: The WP7's go lower in the bass, I could move them by myself, and they are visually smaller for my small listening room (10’x12’).  I appreciate the RM40's for how liquid the ribbons can sound (I'm originally a magnepan IIIa owner)  I originally brought my complete front end down to a RM40's owner (7hrs of driving)and tried my Placette Active (both agreed on the superiority) vs Rogue pre, and compared his Rogue 120 Magnums to the Ampzilla's (the winner to my ears and the owners) with all Transparent Reference cabling (which he preferred to his Kimber)  He has since purchased a Placette Active, kept the Ampzilla's, and bought transparent ultra cabling).

During my travels, only 2 out of 7 Wilson dealers had setups that I could bare listening to, much less impressed by.  Esoteric Audio in Scottsdale, Az excellent services and setup made the final decision easy as they were uncrated and setup for me in my house.  Krystal Clear in Dallas, Texas also had an excellent setup.

I have Lamm M1.1s as my amplifiers finally, and I have compared them to the Rowland 201 monoblocks for 3 weeks in my house.  They are amazing and especially for the money but they didn't replace my Lamm's as I needed more control and warmth in the mid bass.  I am awaiting the opportunity to try the new Rowland 501's (which are suppose to have this) and unfortunately there is no local way for me to listen to an Ampzilla for comparison. I would love to pocket the $$ difference if I found what I was looking for and sold the Lamm's.

Sorry about the long reply but I feel I was too brief with my comments before.  If you wish to see what my tastes are just do a user search on Audiogon for my same userid.
[/quote]

[Mad DOg]

cytocycle,

thanks for clarifying! it's apparent that you've had tons of experience with a variety of gear and have a good grasp on synergies. i'm learning more and more about synergy every time i try a new component out in my system.

actually the aragon is not going to be used to drive the wilsons...i've read how they can be harsh as well. of the 2 wilson setups i've heard in the past, neither was harsh. both had tubes in the front end.

[Mad DOg]

Yes, I have listened to an Aragon Pre and Palladium mono-block setup several times over the years... and yes it is leaps and bounds better then the Adcom GFP750 (I owned that for 2hours listening before it went back in the box), my list was in now apparent order. I only made this comment because the Wilson + Aragon synergy didn’t work in my "Listening" experiences...

i'm glad you mentioned your experience w/ the 750! i was kinda worried about you when you brought that one up...

it doesn't surprise me that the wilson + aragon setup didn't work too well. while aragon is on the "warmer" side for solid state gear, it is still more "neutral" than most tube gear. since the wilsons i heard sounded amazing w/ tubes driving them, i would expect the aragons to produce a "harder" sound.

[John Casler]

To Clarify my comments

to Mad DOG and John Casler:

My main comment was NOT to say the VMPS is not revealing by saying "forgiving speaker"(should have used "Sounds amazing (ribbons are so smooth) with a wider range of electronics") but to stress that the Wilson can really sound bad with incorrect Solid State Electronics because of how forward and dissecting they can be. I've found that the Sophia's and even the WP7's image more like monitors than the wall of music (you have to go to the Wilson Maxx’s a ...

Hi Cyto,

I totally understand and all we can do is "know" the combos we have heard, but the ultimate number of combinations is almost infinite.

If we are able to get the Son of Ampzilla over to Keith's he has a BAT integrated temproarily as he mentioned in another post, which has pre-outs.  This will allow us to at least have a small comparison to the "on board" BAT amp too.

His Sophia's should sound pretty sweet.  

Hopefully we'll get to do this soon, but I haven't heard anything back about this weekend.

Nice to hear you were considering the RM40s along with the Wilsons

[cytocycle]

Can't wait to hear the results of this get together, wish the AZ area had a more active group for listening sessions like the Socal and the Ny groups.

I can't wait to hear how the Bat combo compares.

Yeah my orginal intensions were Rm40's with two Larger VMPS subs    (I use to run two standard subs on 1000watts with my Magnepan IIIa's on a Music Reference RM9 with an active crossover set at 35hz) but that wouldn't fit in a 10x12 room (next house in 3-4 years will have a dedicated room and I'll re-evalutate again)

[ctviggen]

Cytocycle,

I use to live in Mesa (and Tempe and Scottsdale and Phoenix).  Where are you listening to the Wilsons?  There used to be a place in Scottsdale that had Wilsons.  Wilsons are one speaker I was considering before buying the RM40s.

[cytocycle]

Ctviggen,

I listened and bought mine from Gary at Esoteric Audio in Scottdale.  Gary has been an outstanding dealer, especially since I use to buy 90% of my gear mailorder, I have now switched less components saving me more $$ and hassels (I had some augon deals go sour) because of being able to audition equipment in home.

[doug s.]

Can't wait to hear the results of this get together, wish the AZ area had a more active group for listening sessions like the Socal and the Ny groups.

I can't wait to hear how the Bat combo compares.

Yeah my orginal intensions were Rm40's with two Larger VMPS subs    (I use to run two standard subs on 1000watts with my Magnepan IIIa's on a Music Reference RM9 with an active crossover set at 35hz) but that wouldn't fit in a 10x12 room (next house in 3-4 years will have a dedicated room and I'll re-evalutate again)

cyto, i am surprised you dint check out fully-loaded rm30's as an option to the rm40's.  they would be much more conducive to your room size, & most folk who have compared, say they are better than rm40s' in all aspects but for that last octave.  (or extreme spl in a large venue.)  coupled w/subs, i'd think this would be an ideal set-up...

of course, being able to keep the audi in lieu of a cheap honda would have been another bene...  

doug s.

[cytocycle]

RM30's wheren't out 1.75 years ago when I bought them, plus I would still need subs with 30's.

Besides the Brilliant Yellow Audi just attracked police so I substituted it with "Ferrari Fly Yellow" Painted Wilson Watt Puppies 7.

The Honda Element allows me to pickup and ship used stereo equipment easily too    where trying to fit that in my audi truck was impossible especially the Lamm Crates

[cytocycle]

Here is my system with pics in my living room now, it's getting moved back into the bedroom so I can put treatment up.

I haven't posted pictures in audiocircle yet.

http:// http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1070824188&openusid&zzCytocycle&4&5#Cytocycle [url]

[doug s.]

RM30's wheren't out 1.75 years ago when I bought them, plus I would still need subs with 30's.

yes, they need subs.  which is what the top portion of yer wilson's are sitting on!  

Besides the Brilliant Yellow Audi just attracked police so I substituted it with "Ferrari Fly Yellow" Painted Wilson Watt Puppies 7.

i have always noticed that subdued colors are best for fast transport.

The Honda Element allows me to pickup and ship used stereo equipment easily too    where trying to fit that in my audi truck was impossible especially the Lamm Crates

this could end up costing more than it saves.     perhaps it's time to check out the rm30/sub option, now that it's out.  then ya can sell the wilson's, put a deposit on another fuun ride, & keep that honda to boot!  

regards,

doug s.