[audioengr]

Kevin W wrote:

Cables *definitely* make a difference in your system. Just like any other component, you will want your cables to be of relatively similar quality to the rest of your system. For example, you don't want $10 cables to connect $1k components. Also, cables definitely have a sonic signature that may or may not have "synergy" with the rest of your system and your musical tastes.

Sorry, Kevin, but I have to differ with you on the synergy thing.  In my experience unless you are using cables as tone controls, there is no synergy, only good sounding and bad sounding cables.  Now synergy between amps and speakers, this is very real and has to do with the amps ability to drive the  varying load of the speaker while staying linear etc..

And Dan, the fact that you are touting this Belden cable as a "neutral, detailed" cable just shows either that:
1) your system is not resolving enough for you to tell the difference or
2)  you have never actually heard what a well-designed cable can do for your system

I am willing to send you one of my older obsolete designs so you can experience this.  It is quite an eye-opener for most folks.  Let me know if you are interested.
 
[/quote]

[nathanm]

How about this: Every vendor on this board who sells cables will offer up two pairs of whatever they wanna promote and we put them all in a big pile and mail them around, and at the end we will post what we heard.  To make it easier could use a scale such as:

1. Like Daggers In My Ears
2. Extreme Listening Fatigue
3. Hard
4. Cool
5. Dead Neutral
6. Lukewarm
7. Warm
8. Bloomy
9. Mushy
10. Sloppy Mess

We'll call it The AudioCircle Cable Tournament of Champions

[JohnR]

Interesting scale...

[Xi-Trum]

In my experience unless you are using cables as tone controls, there is no synergy, only good sounding and bad sounding cables.  Now synergy between amps and speakers, this is very real and has to do with the amps ability to drive the  varying load of the speaker while staying linear etc..

Excellent point!  I keep hearing people talking about system synergy.  I feel that most of the time they are really talking about tone control.  For example, one would want to mix warm-colored components with hard-cold sounding components to negate each other's short-coming.

I was told long ago that system synergy is none of that.  And that it has everything to do with how a component matches with the next component in the chain from a technical standpoint.  For example, can a CDP drive a passive preamp and amp given its output voltage?  Does an IC have low capacitance for use with a passive preamp?  Can a passive preamp drive an amp given some input impedance?  Can an amp drive a speaker given a particular load?

Too often, we are quick to point out system synergy from the tone control viewpoint.  Unfortunately, some manufacturers are also on this band wagon when their equipments don't get positive reviews.

Thanks for pointing this out, audioengr.

[Dan Banquer]

O.K. guys; According to what I am seeing in the postings The order should be so far: Brad, Xi-Trum, Carlman, duff 138, and Nathan.  Brad, please send me your postal address. Brad, when you are through with cables, ( is two weeks enough?) please ship them to Xi-Trum, and so on down the line. I should be able to ship two pair of one meter interconnects this Saturday.

[Juan R]

I have a good quality speaker cables, recently I did make a pair of 6g home depot  cables with 9mm cardas spades. To be honest, there is no difference in sound quality. $200 vs $35. Maybe is my system, or my ears. I may change ic to get pure siver from my copper that I using right now to see is there is a difference in sound.

[audiojerry]

Dan, I just sent you an email to get on the list.
Thanks for the offer!

I don't think two weeks is required. It might be better to try to limit the audition to one week or less. What do you think?

[Dan Banquer]

Hi Jerry;
          Sometimes it takes people a while to make up their own minds so I think a two week maximum should be a guideline. Any feedback from anyone else?

[nathanm]

What say you about this demo, KevinW?  How about offering two pair of those Jena Labs cables

which are the most detailed and natural sounding cables I have heard. For $330/pair 1m, these cables are excellent value.

Then we can all hear what "excellent value" means to us.  

As far as the time span goes, I say no more than 3 days.  No need to drag things out overly long IMHO.

[Xi-Trum]

Any feedback from anyone else?

How about breaking in the cables before they make their journey.  

[nathanm]

Oh, haven't you been reading the forums here Xi-Trum?  If they did that they'd just un-burn themselves when you put them in the box!        Oh that's rich.  I have to thank ya'll for the entertainment.  This board is a HOOT sometimes!

[audiojerry]

Hey Nathan, did you forget to take your anti-cynical meds today?

[Marbles]

Dan,

How does the Belden 8422 differ from the Beldon 89259?

I know one is coax and one is a twisted pair, but how do they differ in sound?

[KevinW]

What say you about this demo, KevinW?  How about offering two pair of those Jena Labs cables

which are the most detailed and natural sounding cables I have heard. For $330/pair 1m, these cables are excellent value.

Then we can all hear what "excellent value" means to us.  

As far as the time span goes, I say no more than 3 days.  No need to drag things out overly long IMHO.

Haha, I would be afraid that you might confuse them with dinner...  Your "waffle fry" comment had me laughing out loud.  Jennifer thought that was pretty funny too.  

So you want a demo?  That's a definite possibility, but there are some potential drawbacks on how this might work.  I need to be honest that I don't have time to get a demo setup properly at the moment.  It's been over a week, and I have been so busy with my day job that I haven't had time to get any products up on website.  Well, I've also been developing some big-tickets mods to the ASL Tulip amp for an early customer.  However, after I have my website up, I'll start a thread in *my* soon-to-be forum on how I think the demo might work.

However, there is plenty of information about the Jena Labs cables at www.jenalabs.com, and anything I sell will have a 30-day, no questions asked return policy.

Maybe I'll be able convince Jennifer to send a pair of her $20k/meter interconnects that have so much copper you need two people to lift them.  

[Carlman]

Kevin W wrote:

Cables *definitely* make a difference in your system. Just like any other component, you will want your cables to be of relatively similar quality to the rest of your system. For example, you don't want $10 cables to connect $1k components. Also, cables definitely have a sonic signature that may or may not have "synergy" with the rest of your system and your musical tastes.

Sorry, Kevin, but I have to differ with you on the synergy thing.  In my experience unless you are using cables as tone controls, there is no synergy, only good sounding and bad sounding cables.  Now synergy between amps and speakers, this is very real and has to do with the amps ability to drive the  varying load of the speaker while staying linear etc..

And Dan, the fact that you are touting this Belden cable as a "neutral, detailed" cable just shows either that:
1) your system is not resolving enough for you to tell the difference or
2)  you have never actually heard what a well-designed cable can do for your system

I am willing to send you one of my older obsolete designs so you can experience this.  It is quite an eye-opener for most folks.  Let me know if you are interested.
 

[/quote]

OK, So Empirical sells IC's in the hundreds of dollars... they better be awesome!  My $50 PBJ is neutral and detailed... best I've ever heard.  Want to flame me, too?  I'm not going to spend more than $100 on an interconnect.  So, using adjectives within a frame of reference (sub $100) is perfectly acceptable to me.  Comparing a cable that STARTS in the $350+ range ... is not a fair comparison to me.

I don't believe the hype about "system synergy" or that your "system isn't resolving enough"...   Either the cables sound good or they don't.  If my system isn't resolving enough, I don't need mega$$ cables anyway.  I think 'system synergy' is a term whose definition has been broadened to sell more of one company's cables.  I think Virtual Dynamics was part of that craze...

In any case, I'm excited to demo these cables as I'm still learning what differences there are in cables.  I'll be hooking up some new speaker wire tonight and hearing the differences between Audio Magic and Kimber.  Fun!

As to the time limit, I say 1 week is enough for me.

-Carl

[nathanm]

Hey Nathan, did you forget to take your anti-cynical meds today?

Jerry if you wag that finger at me one more time I'm gonna break it off!   Anyway, I've never heard of any such pills, nor would I take them if they existed.  There's a drug worth saying NO to!

Kevin:  Sounds good to me.  Seriously, I'd be thrilled to audition a cable priced in the stratosphere.  I would LOVE the chance to put up something that costs more than my car up against a Radio Shack cable.  That is the true test to sniff out the truffles from the shit.  If 20 grand is not a night and day difference then what is?  If I cannot hear the improvement with that matchup then this whole cable industry can take a flying leap for all I care.  

Yeah, the broad at the UPS counter might look at you funny when you said you wanted to insure the package for $20,000, but I'd still love the opportunity to see for myself what the real deal is.

Start working on room-temperature superconduction and then we'll talk about $10,000 cables!

[Dan Banquer]

Marbles: I don't think there would be much of a difference. However If you want to try them feel free to put yourself on the list.
Cable Burn-In: I really have not found (nor anyone else) any physical evidence that this actually happens. I firmly believe that people take some time to physcologically adjust to differences to their system. I attrbute this to physcological not physical differences.

[Marbles]

Marbles: I don't think there would be much of a difference. However If you want to try them feel free to put yourself on the list.

Thanks for the kind offer Dan.  I have several IC's based on the 89259 (DIYCable skinny ones).  If they sound similar, then I'm past that for my 2 channel ref. rig.  They are fine for my HT or secondary systems...besides dull gray doesn't match the crushed red velvet and leopard print sofa

[audiojerry]

audioengr wrote:

Sorry, Kevin, but I have to differ with you on the synergy thing. In my experience unless you are using cables as tone controls, there is no synergy, only good sounding and bad sounding cables.

audioengr, your statement suggests that cables should not be used as tone controls, which implies that cables will only 'color' the way one's components sound. I see a big problem with this viewpoint because it seems to be based on the premise that the rest of one's system has a completely neutral sound.

There is no such thing as a neutral sounding component; let alone a neutral sounding system. Different cables have different tonal qualities, just like any other component. Achieving system synergy is based on one's personal tastes and expectations, and the way a cable interacts will vary depending on the other components it is paired with.

there is...only good sounding and bad sounding cables.

I can agree with this to a degree. It is possible to have a cable that sounds good in just about any system if it is designed well, but that doesn't mean it will sound best in every system. With any given system there may be one cable that excels over another, but just the reverse may be true when inserted in a different system.

I very recently auditioned a cable that faired very badly in my system vs. my current cable. When I changed out one component, my P-3A dac for the built-in dac in my cd player, the cable sounded positively wonderful. My own cable sounded good both ways, supporting your theory, but it sounded better with the P-3A. When comparing both cables when using the cd player only, the audition cable came out ahead of my cable.

I believe this makes a very strong case for synergy.        

Dan, I like your frankness, but burn-in does take many hours. I think this could be easily demonstrated in blind tests.

[audiojerry]

Carlman wrote:

My $50 PBJ is neutral and detailed... best I've ever heard. Want to flame me, too?

Nothing personal, but as long as we are being frank, I used to own Kimber PBJ, and next to something I owned from Best Buy, they were the worst cables I've used. Something much nicer, but much cheaper are Canare. This is an example of a cable that seems to sound good in every system, but it never sounds 'best' in any system.

These varying opinions also demonstrate how strongly personal tastes can affect quality judgements.