Joule White at Newport Beach 2014

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Vapor Audio

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #20 on: 4 Jun 2014, 04:39 am »
Comments on WBF:

"sound I wanted to like:
 
Vapor/Clayton- again, we have an integration issue. the mids/highs had promise on friday, but i was hesitant on the bass and thought it could be room related- however, upon a second listen perhaps the transmission line gave the dreaded 1-note bass or the woofer was too slow for the package. It was distracting."

I've done my share of shows now, and can say that was the most resonant room I've ever been in.  Good news is that Glenn and Shelly from GIK said that next year they'll make sure that isn't an issue  :)

The bass was distracting, I was aggravated.  That speaker has the most tuneful and resolved bass of any of our speakers, and some of the best I've ever heard.  But that wasn't apparent at the show.  In the front row it was MUCH more balanced, but the back row was a bit of a mess.  Seasoned listeners should know that such a drastic change over a 3' distance points squarely at a room issue.  At low volumes it wasn't able to excite the back wall and was much more balanced as well.  But at higher volumes one could easily feel the back wall vibrating like a drum skin sympathetically with the bass, it was basically producing it's own much time-delayed bass track centered at 80-90hz. 

But, the reality is it's OUR job to give the listener tools they need to help deal with room issues.  I've been in the car for about 1500 miles now, and among other things I'm doing in the passenger seat is designing a network that will give the listener bass room tuning options with the flick of a switch.  And doing it in a way that will introduce minimal parts into the chain.  It will be simple and elegant, I wish I'd done it before the show.  Or at least wish I had called GIK prior and partnered with them at Newport. 

I'm sure feedback from this show will be split by those who sat in the front row, and those who sat in the rear. 

But it is looking like Joule White will make another appearance at the CA Show in San Francisco, with the room compensation network in place. 

Just to show how well our CNC cut tapering transmission line is working, take a look at this nearfield measured output.  I know measurements don't mean much to many of you, but what this is showing is near textbook port performance with VERY low resonances.  That means far less port resonance coloration, and better tone from the woofer - which just happens to be the finest woofer of it's size on the planet.  So no, one-noteishness is NOT something the Joule will exhibit, but the room the Joule is in can.


jhm731

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #21 on: 4 Jun 2014, 05:53 am »
I've done my share of shows now, and can say that was the most resonant room I've ever been in.  Good news is that Glenn and Shelly from GIK said that next year they'll make sure that isn't an issue  :)

The bass was distracting, I was aggravated.  That speaker has the most tuneful and resolved bass of any of our speakers, and some of the best I've ever heard.  But that wasn't apparent at the show.  In the front row it was MUCH more balanced, but the back row was a bit of a mess.  Seasoned listeners should know that such a drastic change over a 3' distance points squarely at a room issue.  At low volumes it wasn't able to excite the back wall and was much more balanced as well.  But at higher volumes one could easily feel the back wall vibrating like a drum skin sympathetically with the bass, it was basically producing it's own much time-delayed bass track centered at 80-90hz. 

But, the reality is it's OUR job to give the listener tools they need to help deal with room issues.  I've been in the car for about 1500 miles now, and among other things I'm doing in the passenger seat is designing a network that will give the listener bass room tuning options with the flick of a switch.  And doing it in a way that will introduce minimal parts into the chain.  It will be simple and elegant, I wish I'd done it before the show.  Or at least wish I had called GIK prior and partnered with them at Newport. 

I'm sure feedback from this show will be split by those who sat in the front row, and those who sat in the rear. 

But it is looking like Joule White will make another appearance at the CA Show in San Francisco, with the room compensation network in place. 

Just to show how well our CNC cut tapering transmission line is working, take a look at this nearfield measured output.  I know measurements don't mean much to many of you, but what this is showing is near textbook port performance with VERY low resonances.  That means far less port resonance coloration, and better tone from the woofer - which just happens to be the finest woofer of it's size on the planet.  So no, one-noteishness is NOT something the Joule will exhibit, but the room the Joule is in can.



Since your marketing plan is based on no dealers and performance at audio shows, I'd say you screwed up at Newport.

I'd love to hear your speakers(no dealers), they look great, but I don't understand why you have all those options....does WA or Magico do this?

If you want to establish some performance credibility, send your speakers to Stereophile for review.

PS, find another show partner other than Empirical Audio, who always seems to be making excuses.

paul79

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #22 on: 4 Jun 2014, 06:11 am »
Do you do shows? Make audio equipment? What's wrong with options? I believe this is what sets them apart.

I have been to a couple audio shows in the last few years (not this latest Newport, unfortunately). I have only heard a couple rooms where the systems sounded as good and were as finely tuned as my own system at home. It is not easy, and most vendors have new stuff to show that needs time to come around. A system that is run, tuned, and been at rest is not an easy task to accomplish in a 3 day event..

While I have never heard or owned Vapor equipment, I likely will. Empirical Audio makes fantastic products. I have had several pieces from Steve, and they never fail to deliver the goods. I find his excuses legitimate based on my findings at shows.

jhm731

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #23 on: 4 Jun 2014, 06:31 am »
Wow man.. That's insane!

Do you do shows? Make audio equipment? What's wrong with options? I believe this is what sets them apart. Not to mention the lack of dealer and marketing mark-up on prices.

I have been to a couple audio shows in the last few years (not this latest Newport, unfortunately). I have only heard a couple rooms where the systems sounded as good and were as finely tuned as my own system at home. It is not easy, and most vendors have new stuff to show that needs time to come around. A system that is run, tuned, and been at rest is not an easy task to accomplish in a 3 day event..

While I have never heard or owned Vapor equipment, I will. Empirical Audio makes fantastic products. I have had several pieces from Steve, and they never fail to deliver the goods. I find his excuses legitimate based on my findings at shows.

I stand by my post.

If their marketing plan is no dealers and performance at Audio Shows, they screwed up, and if Steve is this big time Audio Show vet, then they need a new a partner. 

Get it right the first day of show or go home.



PMAT

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #24 on: 4 Jun 2014, 06:38 am »
Wow JHM. That was pretty rude. I'm all for solid criticism but rudeness discredits your message. This is their circle as well.  Edit. Stereophile wouldn't give credibility for everyone. I won't read it anymore.

jhm731

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #25 on: 4 Jun 2014, 06:54 am »
Wow JHM. That was pretty rude. I'm all for solid criticism but rudeness discredits your message. This is their circle as well.  Edit. Stereophile wouldn't give credibility for everyone. I won't read it anymore.

Stereophile testing would show if their website data is fact or fiction.

Once again, if your marketing plans are based on performance at audio shows and you don't deliver the goods, you have a problem that fancy cabinets,expensive drivers and X-over components can't solve.

Feel the force, don't force the feel.

Vapor Audio

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #26 on: 4 Jun 2014, 07:43 am »
I stand by my post.

If their marketing plan is no dealers and performance at Audio Shows, they screwed up, and if Steve is this big time Audio Show vet, then they need a new a partner. 

Get it right the first day of show or go home.

Wow!  Were you even there?  It doesn't sound like you were.  So if the rest of the show coverage trickles out and we're consistently mentioned as one of the better rooms, will you retract your statement?  And where have your congratulations been at all the past shows where we have been mentioned consistently as one of the best if not THE best room at the show? 

Quote
Stereophile testing would show if their website data is fact or fiction.

Once again, if your marketing plans are based on performance at audio shows and you don't deliver the goods, you have a problem that fancy cabinets,expensive drivers and X-over components can't solve.

Feel the force, don't force the feel.

Did somebody pee in your Cheerios?  We killed it at this show just like we do at every show, even with the bass issues.  And unlike most manufacturers we're not blaming the room, but instead using it as a learning experience and motivation to further improve the design.  You sound like someone, and I have no idea why, who has a personal axe to grind.  What's the deal? 

standub

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #27 on: 4 Jun 2014, 01:58 pm »
  What's the deal?

Looking at his/her other post, the issue seems to be that your speakers say Vapor and not Wilson. :green:

Cheeseboy

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #28 on: 4 Jun 2014, 04:54 pm »
There is no doubt that hotel rooms are not ideal environments to demonstrate loudspeakers and do critical listening.   We attend these events with a certain amount of forgiveness for the situation.  I walk out of most rooms that are untreated and for the most part don't have a demonstration agenda.  They just play music and expect the customer to get what is going on with the speaker.  We expect our most prized vendors to walk the walk when it comes to demo time. 

You guys have a very special product.  Please go the distance.   I have been to two Newport shows where you have exhibited and been put off by the set up.   I want to hear these speakers sing.  Your products are on my short list for my next speaker purchase.   

Adding GIK as a partner is a great plan.  Anyone that stopped by the Odyssey room will be ranting about the system.  They got a quality demonstration and the room with minimal treatment by GIK that allowed the system to shine as the star it is. 

See you in SF.  Looking forward to hearing what your speakers can really do.

Hugh

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #29 on: 4 Jun 2014, 05:12 pm »
Well put Cheeseboy. :)

See you guys soon.

seadogs1

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #30 on: 4 Jun 2014, 05:27 pm »
Hi Guys and Gals! I have the Joule Whites and did not have any room treatment when Ryan installed them. They sounded good but now that I have GIK panels installed they sound fabulous!!!! The Vapor Speakers  are quite special and the Joule whites sing like no other IMHO. Keep an open mind and listen to them next time in a GIK treated room and I think you will be amazed.

DaveC113

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #31 on: 4 Jun 2014, 05:37 pm »
There is no doubt that hotel rooms are not ideal environments to demonstrate loudspeakers and do critical listening.   We attend these events with a certain amount of forgiveness for the situation.  I walk out of most rooms that are untreated and for the most part don't have a demonstration agenda.  They just play music and expect the customer to get what is going on with the speaker.  We expect our most prized vendors to walk the walk when it comes to demo time. 

You guys have a very special product.  Please go the distance.   I have been to two Newport shows where you have exhibited and been put off by the set up.   I want to hear these speakers sing.  Your products are on my short list for my next speaker purchase.   

Adding GIK as a partner is a great plan.  Anyone that stopped by the Odyssey room will be ranting about the system.  They got a quality demonstration and the room with minimal treatment by GIK that allowed the system to shine as the star it is. 

See you in SF.  Looking forward to hearing what your speakers can really do.

I agree. Personally, I really like the Vapor speakers and the system they set up... and I spent a good amount of time at RMAF 2013 listening to them. It sounds like the issues with bass were similar at both shows and is something that needs a solution.

I think partnering with GIK will be a very good idea, as setting up for shows seems to be a separate talent vs building audio gear. I also agree the Odyssey setup is always very good and if Vapor can achieve similar results I think they will start getting very solid reviews all around.

PMAT

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #32 on: 4 Jun 2014, 10:40 pm »
All this sounds great but what if the speakers sound great in a hotel room and suck at your home? That is way worse. Having it adjustable somehow is a great idea. Bass and space are dance partners. Room treatments look bad to me. Some are nice, but very few, and they are mainly first reflection treatments not bass treatments. I have two sets of adjustable speakers and like the flexibility.

Brucemck

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #33 on: 4 Jun 2014, 11:00 pm »
If it's just low end room issues, which just about every hotel room is going to have in spades, then any combination of these would work great:

http://www.rivesaudio.com/PARC/PARCframe.html
http://www.msr-inc.com/studio/springtrap/springtrap.html
http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page9/page10/page10.html

Or, use a J River (or Amara) based server and use the built in PEQ. (Even then, the springtraps and Spatial would be nice adds.) Or, have Keith Yates sell you two monster tube traps and put them in any two corners of the rooms.

Cheeseboy

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #34 on: 4 Jun 2014, 11:34 pm »
I would kiss the feet of the designer that developed bass traps and treatments that looked like regular household furnishings.  The Synergistic room correction approach was very interesting and got my attention at the show.  Magic Dots.  They were taking the "treatments" out of the room to demonstrate their effectiveness.   I don't know how I feel about these products yet. 

I would rather that Ryan focus his energy on designing the best speakers that he can than have him compromise the integrity and raise the prices chasing bass modes in homes and hotels.  GIK and others can do that.  I live in the forest in a former vacation rental with more knotty pine than a Bonanza episode on the walls.   I ended up purchasing a Dual Mode AntiMode to tame my bass problems.  I think Emerald Physics uses a similar set up in their room.   They always have killer diller chiller bass.   And they are open baffle.   I'm going to invest in some GIK Art Panels soon. 

That said, presentation is everything.   I think what we have here is a company who puts everything they have in the fit, finish, sound quality and design of thier gear.  It shows.  Sometimes we forget the customer, yes the pesky customers expect to hear the best.   Partner with GIK.  Play a pre selected rotation of music.   Set structured demo times.  Do the old Bose three step.  Tell the customer what they are going to hear.  Give them the music then take it away and ask it they heard it.   Tie that down and ask for the order.  Answer questions while another person writes up the orders and inquiries.    Perhaps Ryan is having the same entrepreneurial seizure every small business owner has in the beginning.   Perhaps it is time to grow another person in the company that does public appearances and Ryan is just the man behind the curtain.  The pro from dover, business manager and audiophile guru. 

It's not easy being a small business owner . 

Don_S

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #35 on: 5 Jun 2014, 01:17 am »
Sometimes we forget the customer, yes the pesky customers expect to hear the best.   Partner with GIK.  Play a pre selected rotation of music.   Set structured demo times.  Do the old Bose three step.  Tell the customer what they are going to hear.  Give them the music then take it away and ask it they heard it.   Tie that down and ask for the order.  Answer questions while another person writes up the orders and inquiries.    Perhaps Ryan is having the same entrepreneurial seizure every small business owner has in the beginning.   Perhaps it is time to grow another person in the company that does public appearances and Ryan is just the man behind the curtain.  The pro from dover, business manager and audiophile guru. 

It's not easy being a small business owner .

Sorry cheeseboy,  I edited your post to the part I want to comment on.  Do you realize how much flack they would catch from "pesky customers" (and a certain dynamic duo from AC who cover RMAF for Audio Circle each year) if they went to a structured, closed-door, their-music-only demo?    :duh: They would get  :flame:


MDolphin

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #36 on: 5 Jun 2014, 02:25 am »
The 2014 Newport Show was great.  It was my second consecutive year in attendance. 
 
I went Floor by Floor, but always returned to the 10th Floor corner suite occupied by VAPOR AUDIO (Vapor Suite). Problem with this Vapor Suite was its size.  Eventhough the Vapor Suite featured 2 rows of seating, time and time again, it was always standing room only.
 
At last year's Newport Show, I was impressed with the Nimbus Black, BUT myself and many others in attendance that I talked with were completely blown away by this year's, Joule White design.  In fact, I attended this show on Friday and returned again on Sunday, just hoping to occupy a seat in the front row. 
 
Like most audio enthusiasts, I brought along couple of my CDs to directly compare my music that I am familiar with in my uber expensive home setup with/to the Vapor Suite setup.  My CDs were ripped via a music server and my demo was ready.  The dynamics, holographic effect, sparkling highs way out to the nether regions and absolute clarity in vocals/midrange were stunning that I had never ever experienced from these CD's before!  I also sensed a more controlled low bass between my Friday and Sunday demos.   So on Sunday, I added hard-hitting/tight/fast bass to my Friday list of dynamics, holographic effect, sparkling highs way out to the nether regions and clarity in vocals/midrange subsequent to another demo of my same CD's.   
 
I definitely placed my name on the long order list for a Joule White.  Thanks again to Ryan, Pete and Steve for your professionalism, creativity, patience and availability to discuss any questions re build, upgrade options, custom home applications and tips, etc.
 
 
 
 

DaveC113

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Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #37 on: 5 Jun 2014, 02:27 am »
Sorry cheeseboy,  I edited your post to the part I want to comment on.  Do you realize how much flack they would catch from "pesky customers" (and a certain dynamic duo from AC who cover RMAF for Audio Circle each year) if they went to a structured, closed-door, their-music-only demo?    :duh: They would get  :flame:

Yes they would...  :icon_twisted:

I think it's cool to play preselected music that the vendors think shows off their system... but you HAVE to play music people bring in or they really can't get a good comparison with other systems they hear. I won't take too much time in rooms that won't play music I bring in, there's only so much time to spend at shows and I don't want to waste it.

OzarkTom

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #38 on: 5 Jun 2014, 10:45 am »
Stereophile testing would show if their website data is fact or fiction.

Once again, if your marketing plans are based on performance at audio shows and you don't deliver the goods, you have a problem that fancy cabinets,expensive drivers and X-over components can't solve.

Feel the force, don't force the feel.

When I was a dealer back in the 80's, I was introduced to a man called Tom Goetz from Atlanta Georgia. He built speakers using the same drivers as all the other biggie companies out there, but had a very simple 6db per octave crossover. All he used was a coil and one capacitor for his crossover. The man could fine-tune every speaker by hand and ear, he was a genius. His speakers blew away everything by Thiel, Vandersteen, and Wilson made. Those were the a few of the biggies back then. So why don't you hear his name as a biggie today?

Goetz wanted more dealers, so a friend of mine offered to travel to the dealers and set them up. Even though the dealers heard how good they sounded, all they asked was where are the reviews? Without review,s all these dealers were not interested in carrying them.

So Tom boxed two pair up and sent them off to Stereophile and the TAS. Goetz even took out an ad in Stereophile that cost him hundreds of dollars. After three months of no word from the magazines, Goetz contacted the magazines. TAS boxed up their loaners and shipped them back to Goetz. Stereophile finally did the same thing, J. Gordon Holt wrote up a very damaging review that was never printed. He wrote that nobody could ever take these speakers seriously because they were a joke.

There were politics back then, politics going on even today. It is very tough to break the politics barrier with your components. Just because you make the very best in the world does not guarantee a favorable review with these reviewers. Tom Goetz was the perfect example.


Cheeseboy

Re: Joule White at Newport Beach 2014
« Reply #39 on: 5 Jun 2014, 03:57 pm »
Sorry cheeseboy,  I edited your post to the part I want to comment on.  Do you realize how much flack they would catch from "pesky customers" (and a certain dynamic duo from AC who cover RMAF for Audio Circle each year) if they went to a structured, closed-door, their-music-only demo?    :duh: They would get  :flame:

Is your objection to a closed door structured demo or just not playing anything that comes in the door?