[THROWBACK]

I was involved in a shootout of phono cables a couple of days ago involving 5 fairly well-known cables. I do not wish to name the five because this was not a scientific or even terribly well-organized test. Just I and a friend swapping leads and listening for differences in a single source, a classical record featuring tenor and piano. VPI table, VPI 3-D arm, RCA-RCA jacks. I did not know which lead was which until after the test was over.

It is good to remind myself now and again how difficult it is to construct a good test. Just a couple of the pitfalls:
1. As I repeated a test using the same source--a record, in this case--some of the difference I might have perceived in swapping leads was simply my growing familiarity with the source. I was learning more what to listen for as I made comparisons. "I like the violins better on this one," may be simply that I was less aware of the violins on the last one and needed to go back and check. And that time, of course, I liked the piano better on the first one. Round and round we go.

2. All these comparisons were made on my friend's system, not mine. Same model but different cartridge, different arm, different everything else. But I have a DIN plug at the end of my arm, the phono IC's availalable for test had only RCA's so it was this configuration or nothing.

OK, so it was a crappy test. Given all of these problems (and many more, of course), could I still hope to learn anything useful from the shootout? 

Well, for better or worse, I learned that not all phono cables sound the same and that the differences were important. I also developed a clear preference for the expensive (naturally!) Audio Note (Japan) silver cable with Eichmann silver plugs. So I'll be haunting Audiogon to pick up one of these (unless someone knows a good source for new ones).

But I have a second tonearm with wiring that goes all the way from the cartridge pin clips to the RCA jacks of the preamp and I would like to get the same sound from that arm as well. Can anyone recommend a phono cable for this one. This must be of the ultra-thin and flexible variety so that it won't interfere with the free play of the arm.

Thanks

[Speedskater]

Aren't turntable cables very dependent on cable length, phono cartridge model and pre-amp input stage?

[THROWBACK]

WARNING: IGNORANCE ALERT!!!

They may be, but AFAIK cable manufacturers do not market their IC's with any reference to whether their cable should be used "only with MC's" or with "solid state preamps only" or the like.

In my case, at least the test was done with the same model of cartridge that I own and with the same length of cable I would be using.

[Speedskater]

Rather than me trying to enplane the whole idea, just do a search:

phono cartridge loading capacitance

******************************
Heck, I'll save you the trouble of searching.
Start here:

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

[neobop]

2. All these comparisons were made on my friend's system, not mine. Same model but different cartridge, different arm, different everything else. But I have a DIN plug at the end of my arm, the phono IC's availalable for test had only RCA's so it was this configuration or nothing.

But I have a second tonearm with wiring that goes all the way from the cartridge pin clips to the RCA jacks of the preamp and I would like to get the same sound from that arm as well. Can anyone recommend a phono cable for this one. This must be of the ultra-thin and flexible variety so that it won't interfere with the free play of the arm.

Thanks

Same model what, table?   Everything that matters for comparison is different and you expect the same results.   

Assuming you're using a LOMC capacitance shouldn't matter.  Try whatever you like.  Silver tonearm cable is popular, especially with the MC fans.

For the second arm is this internal tonearm wire?  If it goes from cart clips to RCA jacks you're talking about tonearm wire whether it's  internal or not.  You can buy silver tonearm wire and twist it up for a continuous run.  You won't have RFI rejection of shielded wire.  Is this what you have now?
Is it an interconnect that attaches to the back of a linear arm? 

We really need more information.  What carts are you talking about?  What's the second arm and what's on there now? 
neo

[THROWBACK]

Thanks, guys. The reference cartridge was a Miyajima Kansui. I do not want to name the units under test because our test was admittedly so flawed. Plus, our preferences could really only be applied to my friend's system.

Speedskater. Thanks for the Hagerman reference. That's a good one. I am very aware of the MC peak. In fact, I avoided MC cartridges for many years because of it. I kept trying new MC's and my reaction was always the same: an initial WOW! followed after a few hours by disappointment--even after optimum loading. The Miyajima Kansui is the best one I have played with so far, but I am still checking it out.

Neo. Gosh no. I did not expect the same results. I did not know what to expect. I just wanted to see if phono cable made all that much difference. I am now convinced it does. My system is more revealing than my friend's and I guess I have convinced myself that a phono cable would make even more difference in mine. I am certainly open to arguments on this conclusion.

Together you bring up a good point. The cartridge is an MC and we were able to vary the load resistance via a dial to tame the resonance peak. What we did NOT do was vary the load resistance every time we changed cables.  The load resistance is in series with the cable resistance. If cable A had higher resistance than cable B, the two cables might have been made to sound more similar if the load resistance faced by cable A were lowered such that the combination resistance equalled that of cable B. Might these differences have been great enough to skew the results? Dunno.

Clearly, I would have preferred to run the test using my own system, but that was not possible. I know that I heard clear differences when I swapped phono cables in my friend's system. Were the differences due strictly to LCR differences? Don't know. Crystal structure? No clue. We did hear differences between copper and silver, but also between copper and copper; silver and silver.

All the test really showed me is that I should get some good input from guys like you who may have played with different ones.

[neobop]

That's interesting.  You like the Kansui. Ever try the Shilabe?  Just wondering, and also wondering what others you've tried in the past. 

The resistance load of the preamp is in parallel, so no worries about "normal" cable resistance.  I figured it's a MC, as that's more likely to go with Audio Note silver cables.  Loading a MC is quite different than loading a MM and I think Hagerman has you a little mixed up.  That whole page is good for electrical resonance for a MM, perhaps SUT info, but it's outdated and of limited value.  If you're still using MM, perhaps on the other mystery arm, this is more enlightening (written by an EE):
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html

If you want suggestions for the other arm, just let us know the application.
neo

[THROWBACK]

Neo. Of course you are right about the load being in parallel. Don't know what I was thinking.

Yes, I like the Kansui a lot. It is the first MC I have truly shined up to. In the past, I kept going back to the Grados, an Audio Technica then to the Music Maker I, II, and III. For the last several years, I have been using Soundsmith. I am still vacillating between the MI Hyperion and the MC Kansui (yes--better than the Shilabe I believe) in my affections. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses with respect to the other. Both great cartridges.

The best cartridge ever might well be the Miyajima Zero, a mono cartridge, of all things. I have recently rediscovered mono and on many records I am convinced that going to stereo was a tragically backward step.

My main arm is a new Graham. That's the one with a DIN plug. Right now I am using a Tara phono interconnect but I am interested in trying others--right now the Audio Note. My "mystery arm" is a Teres Illius with the pass-through phono cable. It is a wonderful, beautifully-designed and executed arm that I have yet to give it a good shaking out on my own turntable--a Trans-Rotor Rondino--because I have been unable to mount it satisfactorily. Chris Brady (Teres) is designing me a new adapter as we speak.   

Anyway, if you know where I can get some pretty decent phono wire.....

[Speedskater]

In parallel?

[neobop]

Lets see, that would be sweet and somewhat lush, detailed and reasonably fast, but not etched or harsh.  Good sustain but not sloppy.  Is that it?   
What's not to like? 

Many people are saying the  Miyajima Zero is the best mono.  You have the .7 mil spherical?

You're getting a mounting adaptor for the Teres arm or is that an adaptor for the wire?  I'm not sure what you're looking for here.  The Graham needs a regular DIN tonearm cable.  Check this out:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/wire.html#tone

I've used 1877 internal tonearm copper wire and connectors from here:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/accessories_1877.html
http://www.partsconnexion.com/accessories_analog_cardas.html
http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_tonearm_discov.html

Discovery wire is a favorite of VPI and many of their customers.  For the Din tonearm cable you can get audio note wire from Hi fi Collective and make it or have it made into a tonearm cable.  Other than that it's whatever you can find used.  I have a VDH silver cable that came with an SME V.  Every arm manufacturer also has cables.  Finding the right one is another proposition.
neo

[neobop]

In parallel?

Yes.  Load resistors go to ground.  You can hook up a parallel load by connecting resistors between the hot and ground on the RCA jack.
neo

[THROWBACK]

Yes, Neo, that's the Miyajima I have. I have never heard one like it. It has a breathtaking solidity about it that is impossible to describe. You owe it to yourself to hear one.

The adapter is so that I can mount the arm to the armboard that comes with the turntable. The Illius has a very fine real-time VTA adjuster. The arm fits nicely into Teres'own armboards, but not directly into standard mounts like the SME or the Rega. Chris Brady has one of the best systems I have ever heard and it uses the Illius, so I am anxious to get it mounted properly in my system.

Yes, the Graham uses a DIN jack; the Illius goes straight through. Theoretically, the Illius approach should be the best one: one wire end to end; the same wire--not one wire from pins to DIN plug and a different one from DIN plug to phono preamp; one less connector in the line.

Thanks for the suggestions about sources. I'll check them out.

Chuck

[neobop]

Check out that first link, Hifi Collective. They have Audio Note tonearm and interconnect wire in different types.   A tonearm cable is usually single conductor interconnect co-ax, terminated with a 5 pin tonearm DIN on one end and RCA or balanced connector on the other.  They also have some of the other most highly regarded brands.

I think the reason some people favor a continuous run, is because it's unshielded, not because it's continuous.  If the wire is terminated properly, I doubt if an additional connection makes any difference.  Audiophools quote cable voodoo gurus about dissimilar materials, boundaries and electrons getting lost and not knowing where to go.  I don't know about that, but I do know unshielded can sound different.  Just watch out for RFI, and you're good to go.

For those interested in Miyajima mono carts, they're here:
http://www.miyajima-lab.com/e-mono.html

If you click on stereo carts, there's an explination of their cross ring (opposed to cross coil) design. 
neo



 

[Speedskater]

Yes.  Load resistors go to ground.  You can hook up a parallel load by connecting resistors between the hot and ground on the RCA jack.
neo

But the load resistance is in series with the 2 cable resistances (Hot & Return).

[neobop]

But the load resistance is in series with the 2 cable resistances (Hot & Return).

Interesting observation.  I've never seen cable resistance considered in cart loading.   Cable capacitance is measured between conductors so that value is added to preamp shunt capacitance.  Cable resistance is usually a very low value and even if you add it to cart internal resistance/impedance, won't mean much.  Even with LOMCs with low resistance, a few ohms won't make much difference.  You can also change preamp load resistance. 

I have seen low inductance cables for MCs, and low capacitance for MMs. 

[Speedskater]

But "Throwback" first wrote:
 The load resistance is in series with the cable resistance.
This is correct.

But it shouldn't matter much even with a low 10 Ohm MC load.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

But "Throwback" first wrote:
 The load resistance is in series with the cable resistance.
This is correct.

But it shouldn't matter much even with a low 10 Ohm MC load.

I have read the this topic beginning to end and no one has mentioned the following:

If you have 2 ohms of resistance in the rather thin wire between the cartridge and load resistor (which is indeed from hot to ground) there will be a 2 dB loss of signal due to that load and a 2 dB increase in noise (s/n ratio). In addition you are pulling current though the connector at the preamp and any other connection  between the cartridge and preamp. A little bit of diode contact resistance will cause distortion due to this current.

The best way, and of course the best way is not always the easiest, is to put the 10 ohm resistor right at the cartridge. You could solder a tiny 1/8 watt resistor across the solder end of the pins where the tone arm wires start. Then you would need no loading at the preamp. There would be no loss of signal, any contact diode effect would be eliminated (other than the one at the clips but they are usually gold and tighter than many RCA jacks.

For those who want to play with loading I have made a little load box with 6 choices on one switch or 12 choices on two switches. It has nice gold jacks, a pair in and a pair out. You put the turntable leads in one end and a short interconnect on the other end to the preamp. It is very good for determining the load. If you are a person who likes to use loading to actually modify cartridge brightness and damping on a record by record basis you can leave it in the system. If you determine that one load plays all your records well they you can do what I suggested above, solder in the resistor you like best. Although I have not heard of people changing loads on particular records, I have found it useful in my system. It does make a greater difference than many of the tweaks I read about in the forums.

It is a mystery to me that cartridge makers don't put the load resistor right in the cartridge. If we want a flat cartridge he isn't he the best to determine that value? He has the measuring equipment, the test records, hopefully the skill. Evidently we don't trust him (and gosh he made the damn thing) or we want the cartridge to sound "our way"

[neobop]

I have read the this topic beginning to end and no one has mentioned the following:

If you have 2 ohms of resistance in the rather thin wire between the cartridge and load resistor (which is indeed from hot to ground) there will be a 2 dB loss of signal due to that load and a 2 dB increase in noise (s/n ratio). In addition you are pulling current though the connector at the preamp and any other connection  between the cartridge and preamp. A little bit of diode contact resistance will cause distortion due to this current.

The best way, and of course the best way is not always the easiest, is to put the 10 ohm resistor right at the cartridge. You could solder a tiny 1/8 watt resistor across the solder end of the pins where the tone arm wires start. Then you would need no loading at the preamp. There would be no loss of signal, any contact diode effect would be eliminated (other than the one at the clips but they are usually gold and tighter than many RCA jacks.

For those who want to play with loading I have made a little load box with 6 choices on one switch or 12 choices on two switches. It has nice gold jacks, a pair in and a pair out. You put the turntable leads in one end and a short interconnect on the other end to the preamp. It is very good for determining the load. If you are a person who likes to use loading to actually modify cartridge brightness and damping on a record by record basis you can leave it in the system. If you determine that one load plays all your records well they you can do what I suggested above, solder in the resistor you like best. Although I have not heard of people changing loads on particular records, I have found it useful in my system. It does make a greater difference than many of the tweaks I read about in the forums.

It is a mystery to me that cartridge makers don't put the load resistor right in the cartridge. If we want a flat cartridge he isn't he the best to determine that value? He has the measuring equipment, the test records, hopefully the skill. Evidently we don't trust him (and gosh he made the damn thing) or we want the cartridge to sound "our way"

Interesting post.  A tonearm cable might be 2 ohms, but the internal arm wire resistance would be added to that and it's typically 33 to 36 AWG.  The thinner the wire the more resistance?   Still it might not add up to much. 

This part of the discussion was about a MC cart internal resistance which could be 10 ohms, not the load resistance.  Wouldn't that internal resistance be added to that 2 ohm cable resistance? 

There's no way a cart manufacturer can determine optimal load.  It will vary from one preamp to the next and according to user taste and system requirements.  What if a SUT is used instead of going straight in?   Load recommendations are different.  The reality is that carts have to work into preamps and visa versa.  How can a cart mfg. select a load when preamps don't accommodate?   

Clean connectors are basic requirements in audiofool 101.  Deoxit is probably a billion dollar company by now.  There is no practical alternative to connectors except hardwire cables into a preamp? 

The loading box seems interesting, do you sell it commercially?  As for the rest, I think you're putting us on. 
neo

[Speedskater]

2 Ohms? my wire charts don't go that small.  Wait, I found a chart with 40AWG at 1 Ohm per foot. So a MC cartridge, a 2 Ohm cable and a 10 Ohm load will have some problems.

[neobop]

Speed,
I'm not sure what Roger is talking about.  Maybe he'll explain it better.   A 10 ohm LOMC wouldn't ordinarily be loaded at 10 ohms.  If you load the preamp at or below the impedance of the cart, you'll have an affective reduction of output which will require more preamp gain.  Many MCs are 4 to 15 ohm impedance and they're typically loaded at 100 ohms or more.  Loading a MC is different than a MM.  Frequency response doesn't change much, if at all.  What changes is stage vs. focus.  The cart will sound more wide open with higher value preamp resistance.  Load it down and focus is sharper.

There are a couple of exceptions with strident sounding carts, but they are unusual.  I'm not sure what cable resistance has to do with it.  I suspect it's nothing but a confusion of source resistance and load resistance. 
neo