[MarkR7]

I personally love the Chefs Choice as well.  I have been using and older 310 or 312 for many years now. It's simple, fast, and I never damaged a blade using it!

[bladesmith]

Hi,
I've been using a calphalon knife set I got for $200 for the last 10-11 years and I think it's time to upgrade. I do not want a set and would like to get a single quality ~8" all purpose chef knife. Budget is $200. What do you recommend?

Also, I have a round dowel 'diamond' sharpener that came with the set mentioned above and a henckels sharpener. I think the henckels does a pos job and the calphalon does a decent job at honing the edge. What do you recommend for an actual sharpener?

Thanks
-Greg

Greg,

Stick with the rod, use it before or after each use. Just a dozen or so strokes. If you aren't getting results with it, get a (course) Victorinox steel rod.

A stone should be used about twice a year, in a professional setting. Stones are for recreating the original bevel. Or if you just like spending your extra time sharpening your knife. Every situation is different and every user is different,  so there is no "real" right or wrong method,  just whatever works for you.

(At that price you should be able to get a handmade knife. That would last a lifetime. )

Good luck.

[asliarun]

I have the following knives:
- a Tojiro DP gyuto (chef knife - not as curved) 10" - http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpwede24.html
This is made of VG10 steel which is what Shun knives are also made of. Tojiro DP is half the price.

- a 6" Dojo Hayashi "nakiri" - http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dojousuba165mm.html
This is a sandwich steel knife. There is an inner core of "Aogami Super" high carbon steel sandwiched between two outer layers of protective stainless steel. Unlike most high carbon steel knives that can go really sharp and can retain their sharpness for a long time, but need to be maintained very carefully, this knife is not high maintenance and can be used like a regular knife.

- a 10" Richmond Artifex gyuto - http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riar210gyor.html
This knife is made from Swedish surgical steel - called AEBL

- a Wusthof Classic 8" chef knife that my wife bought because she was sick of my oddly named Japanese knives (well, only 2, not sure what category Richmond falls under)

I am not an expert, but I do love chopping (mostly veggies) and hopefully improving my meager knife skills.
My views - honestly, all these knives are decent, especially if we can keep them sharp.

Personally, I did not like the balance of the Wusthof from day one. It was just too back-heavy for me.

I will say one thing - ever since I bought the Richmond Artifex, I have stopped using every other knife. This knife is something else. It is the lightest knife by far, has really good balance (you know, feels just right), is really easy to sharpen and the edge stays for a reasoanbly long time.

I also want to suggest that you consider moving to a 10" knife. Especially if you cut lots of veggies. It may honestly seem a bit too big, but once you start using it, you will not be able to move back to a 8" knife. Plus, a 10" knife is just so much better at processing larger quantities or for cutting large veggies like cabbage, watermelon etc. Or if you cut a couple of onions and then want to run the knife a few times over the whole pile to get it smaller.

For a 10" knife, and considering how light, balanced and agile it is, the Artifex is awesome. But again, this is based on my limited knowledge and experience. By the way, My wife hash stopped using the Wusthof as well and uses my knife all the time now

-arun

[SET Man]

Thanks for the recommendations everyone. I'll give the Victorinox a try and learn how to use a sharpening stone on my old knives.

Hey!

    For $30-50 chef's knives, Victorinox is not bad.  It's will get the job done. I've never own one but have seen them at work. I see on your first post you've mentioned a budget of $200 for 8". If that is for one knife than you have lots of options of good knives out there.

    I'm a fan of Japanese knives and for $200 I highly recommend Misono 440, actually the 210mm and 240mm are less than $200 each. I know many people will recommend the Shun or Global of which are well known and popular but I'm not a fan of those two at all. Yes, I have handled them before from people I worked with.

   But! If you are going to spend that much money for a Japanese knife than you will have to learn how to maintenance it. Personally a good set of water stones are a must, especially for some Japanese knives like Misono of which are sharpened 70/30, so a handheld or motorized sharpener is not good for these... not sure if there any machine that could do 70/30 out there. Well, I rather have a $100 knife with a set of $200 stones than just one $300 knife any day.

   Anyway, here are two places I've got my knives from...

www.chefknivestogo.com

  As mentioned before from the post above, lots of selections.

korin.com/

   Korin is a local store here where I lived in NYC.

Take care,
Buddy

[Rob Babcock]

I'm coming from the same place as SET Man (pro chef).  I'm a big fan of Japanese knives, and I keep of a stable of a bakers dozen good J-knives that rotate in and out of my work case.  It's a little hard to recommend one good knife without a lot of input; it's a bit like an acquaintence asking advice on a first stereo system.  It depends on what you listen to (cook) and how much it will be used.  The one thing I would say is that for $200 you really don't have to 'settle' much- you can get a knife for that price that would serve a pro well.

I like the Western-style Japanese very much.  They're generally thinner than European blades, sharper and offer better edge retention.  They do have a deserved reputation for being a bit more delicate but that depends a lot on the steel.  Something like an Hattori HD isn't delicate at all.  A Konosuke...maybe a little bit.

The knife you generally think of as a "chef's knife" would be a gyuto in a Japanese knife.  Generally Japanese knives are enough lighter and more nimble than the knives you may be used to that you can usually go one size larger than you normally use.  An 8" is very close to 210mm, and a 240mm gyuto will still be lighter and more agile than an 8" Wushtoff.

Before you start shopping, consider what qualities you most value.  Is edge retention important?  Maximum sharpness?  Must it be stainless or can you deal with carbon?  At the risk of oversimplifying things high carbon steels will generally take a keener edge than stainless (although the gap is closing).  Carbon is generally a bit easier to sharpen, too.  This is because it's less abrasion resistant than most SS.  Inox/stainless steels have elements added that can increase edge stability and/or toughness and prevent corrosion.  Some carbon steels hold an edge a bit better than others.  For instance, Super Aogami has tungsten added which improves edge retention vs something like White #1.  However the effect on carbide formation means that Ao Ko doesn't get as sharp as White #1 (in absolute terms- in real terms it's about a wash). 

The newer "super steels" will generally hold an edge longer than any carbon, and get nearly as sharp.  Some of them are expensive and more difficult to sharpen, though.  I have one blade of M390 and it will hold a shaving edge for three weeks of daily use in a restaurant kitchen (!).  But some of my favorite water stones will barely scratch it, and I use an Atoma diamond plate to set the bevel.

The 'entry level' of modern Japanese steel is probably VG-10 if you want stainless.  It's the base steel that Shun uses, along with dozens of other makers.  It was actually considered a Super Steel as recently as ten years ago but IMOHO it's been surpassed by some of the newer tool steels.  Still, VG10 will serve you well and is completely stainless.*

There are two main kinds of Western Japanese knives, divided by the type of handles; Yo and Wa.  Yo handles are the same general kind you would see on a German knife, often riveted or glued on.  Wa handles are round, D-shaped for octagonal handles pounded over a stick tang.  Think of a rat tail comb with a hot dog stuck on it and that's the basic idea.   I like both but each has its virtues.  Wa handles are very light and nimble.  But they sometimes absorb moisture and are somewhat disposable.  Yo handles are a bit more hygenic since they're sealed and generally made of something non-hygroscopic unlike Yo's that are often Ho/magnolia wood.  I use mostly Yo knives for meat cutting.

The main type of knife I use is the gyuto.  Like I said, it's basically a chef's knife.  After the Meiji Restoration Japan began to be influenced by Western culture- food, music, clothing, etc.  The gyuto is the Japanese interpretation of the French Knife.  Most people would say a French knife and a chef's knife are the same thing but they are subtly different.  The former is a bit flatter along the edge while the latter has a bit more "belly" or curve to the edge.  A Shun is a bit more 'German' in overall shape while most "true" Japanese knives are a bit more "French" and flatter along he edge.  They're patterned on the quintessential French knife, the first Sabatiers.

A santoku is familiar to anyone that watches Rachael Ray.  In Japan this would generally be considered a housewife's knife.  A gyuto can do everything a santoku can but the reverse isn't true.  There are other styles that you will run across like a Nakiri (it looks like a smaller, more delicate cleaver), made for cutting veggies, or a Petty (basically a cross between a paring and utility knife).  A Honesuke is a kind of butcher knife.  There are very few Japanse bread knives since bread isn't a common staple of Japanese cooking, but there are a few mostly for export.

I would advise you to avoid the tradition Japanese knives that are single bevel.  The Yanagiba is the common one you'll see; it's generally for sashimi.  There are hundreds of traditional Japanese knife types, each with a highly specialized purpose.  They are an outgrowth/offshoot of traditional sword making.  The best of them are referred to as "honyaki" or "true forged", and are made in a very similar manner as a katana.  Single bevel knives are not designed to prepare Western cuisine and aren't ideally suited to the task.  They are also sharpened differently than Western blades.

At $200 or less there are lots of great knives!  I have my favorites but I will await a more detailed description of how and what you like to cook first.


* Completely stainless in generally accepted terms.  If a knife contains iron (necessary to be steel) it can probably be made to oxidize/rust somehow.  But it will be stainless in general use.

[gregcss]

Rob,

Thanks for the detailed write up. I did some reading and I think a stainless steel blade would be best for me. Being sharp is the most important and a good balance between keeping an edge and being easy to sharpen is second. Looking at MAC, need to do more research. and Richmond, and Victornix as a runner-up option.

[groovybassist]

I sharpen our Mac with a Fiskar's handheld sharpener.  8 or 10 strokes through on each side and it's sharp enough to take your finger off.  Yes, you can get more intense, more professional, more particular, etc., but for general purpose use in the kitchen, this thing does it all.  I've given this knife to several friends, all foodies, but not professional chefs, and they love it.  Good luck in your search.

-Mike

http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-7861-Axe-Knife-Sharpener/dp/B0000950Q4

[Rob Babcock]

Rob,

Thanks for the detailed write up. I did some reading and I think a stainless steel blade would be best for me. Being sharp is the most important and a good balance between keeping an edge and being easy to sharpen is second. Looking at MAC, need to do more research. and Richmond, and Victornix as a runner-up option.

I think the Richmond knives are fantastic for the money.  They don't offer Rolex-level fit'n'finish but the steels are terrific and the HT is superb.  My M390 Ultimatum is unreal, edge retention is off the charts.  An Artifex in AEB-L would serve you very well; that steel takes a very carbon-like edge (it was designed for razor blades) while being totally stainless.

I've also mentioned many times my love for the Kagayaki CarboNext knives exclusive to JCK.  Awesome steel, great edge retention and near-carbon sharpness along with good fit'n'finish.

[gregcss]

The deeper I dig the more I learn. I think the best option right now would be to get a quality sharpener before getting a new knife. I'm looking at the Edge Pro Apex which seems pricey but is about the same price of a quality electric chef choice or 3 quality stones. I also need to upgrade my cutting boards from plastic/nylon to wood. I'm confident these changes will bring new life to my current blades. I'll likely get a better knife later down the road. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

[Rob Babcock]

A very good idea!  The Apex will do a fantastic job on kitchen knives.

[SET Man]

Hey!

   That Edge Pro Apex kit looks impressive.

   Yup, agreed on that too. There's no point to have a good pricey knife if you can maintain it.

Take care,
Buddy

[Rob Babcock]

With the Edge Pro you will get a level of sharpness that you literally didn't know could exist.   I would recommend buying from ChefKnivesToGo.com; they have some upgrade packages with Shapton or Chocera stones.  Those upgraded stones are unbelievable, and they take the EP to a whole new level of performance.  There's a little bit of a learning curve but after doing half dozen to a dozen knives you'll easily get edges that will cause you to recalibrate all your ideas of what sharp means.

[Tyson]

Same with the Wicked Edge - I use it and can get is past razor sharp.  Being able to see my reflection in the bevel is pretty cool too.

[Rob Babcock]

I think the Wicked Edge Precision system (aka WEPS for short) is a great system, probably a little simpler to use than the EP.  By now you can get a ton of aftermarket stones for it, too.  I know Jende sells Shapton, Chocera, Nubatama, maybe a couple Sigma Power and some J-nats.  I think the main strength of the WEPS is also it's main weakness, that being the clam.  It makes it simple to use but limit the system to thing that fit in the clamp.  Probably not an issue with most kitchen knives, though.  Clay once told me how big a knife can be done without re-clamping but now I don't remember the exact number...maybe 11" or so?  The advantage of an Edge Pro is that you could do a sword on it if you want (I know a guy who has done swords on his), but of course there's some practice involved in smoothly moving the blade over the table to get seamless bevel.

WEPS or EP, it comes down to personal choice.  But I do think the OP is on the right track.  Get a good sharpening system and learn to use it, then select a knife.

[Tyson]

Yes I sharpen knives for everyone - good practice.  After a while using a system this outstanding, I find that the main difference between good knives and great knives is mainly how long they retain their edge.  Every single knife I get into the WEPS will take an edge far sharper than shaving sharp.  The good knives keep the edge fairly well, the great knives keep the edge longer.  The other thing I find is that the better knives can be thinner while maintaining a good edge.  And I strongly prefer thinner knives, less friction on the sides of the knife when passing through an onion or other tuber. 

But I also find that kitchen knives don't always benefit from a very acute angle (say, less that 20 degrees), and I also feel they don't really benefit from going past 400 or 600 grit.  I polished all of them up with 2000, 5000, and 10000 grit japanese whetstones, but I ended up feeling like there was too little friction on the edge, and that worked well with meat, it didn't do as well with veggies.  600 grit and 25 degree angle is pretty much what I sharpen to now.

[awm]

Hi all,

Longtime & frequent lurker, though infrequent poster.  Interesting comments.  Like many of you, I own a number of Japanese steel knives and a set of Wusthof Classics that guests are thrilled to use.  My favorite is a Hitachi zdp-189 santoku with a cocobolo handle.  I would actually recommend that piece to the OP, but it's no longer available from JCK.  What is now available in zdp-189 is prohibitive.  I'm a bit surprised zdp-189 in general doesn't come up more often because it's easily the finest steel I've used, at least in this iteration.  I use it daily and need to sharpen it once a year, with a one-minute ceramic touch up maybe four times in between.  No other steel I've used comes close in either edge retention or sharpness.   

I own the Edge Pro, which does get blades razor sharp.  But the water required for the slurry ends up scratching the non-edge part of the blade, which can be frustrating when you want to keep your beautiful Damascus clean and scratch-free.  The only solution I know of is to tape the blade, minus the edge, or live with the scratches.  Or dispense with the water, which compromises the resulting sharpness.  I did a search for a comparison between the EP and Wicked Edge and found this youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGo3pKhp6L8 from a guy who owns both and evidently has a sharpening business, as he mentions that he sharpens knives for customers.  Though he does acknowledge some comparative strengths of the EP, he prefers the Wicked by a wide margin.  One the main reasons is indeed the hassle of taping the blade to prevent customers' knives from scratching.  If contemplating both, I'd recommend the Wicked, though admittedly, I've never used it.  The slurry scratching makes the decision for me. 

IMO, in the end, it comes down to your budget for a sharpening system.  If ~$200 or less, go with the EP.  If you can swing the Wicked, that's the one I'd get.  Had I to do it all over again, I'd get the Wicked.   Given that I own the EP and it does what it says it will, I'll be keeping it and getting some very sharp edges from it for probably many years.

[Rob Babcock]

Yeah, a better knife will hold an edge longer.  But kirenaga, although important, is only one element of the quality of a knife.  To me the geometry is very important, too.  That can mean thinness (particularly behind the edge) but also the profile, the height of the blade, the size of the machi and the degree of belly/height of the tip.  In addition, there's often a balance between kirenaga (the duration of the sharpness of the edge) with the absolute edge a blade will accept.  For instance, White #1 has mediocre kirenaga (especially in comparison to Ao Ko) but it will get sharper, and it sharpens more easily.  I do value a long lasting edge, though.  It means less work for me; I can spend more time cutting and less time sharpening.

It is true that steels with better edge stability will take a more acute angle.  If you take a Wusthof, for example, down to 10* per side the edge will fold over in pretty short order.  But ZDP can be taken even lower.

But to tell the truth I don't care much for ZDP.  It's been surpassed by steels like M390 and HAP40; they get as sharp or sharper, hold an edge longer and are much less chippy.  The fragility of the edge has soured me on ZDP I'm afraid.  Every knife I've ever seen in ZDP-189 develops a lot of micro-chipping when used hard (and by "hard" I mean in a pro kitchen or as EDC).  I had a Spyderco Ladybug3 in ZDP as my EDC and it got pretty chipped up pretty fast, although it still cut great.  Sadly I lost the knife one day.  The replacement I'm  using right now is just AUS8 but I have a Spyderco Dragonfly in Super Blue (Aogami) on the way when the sprint runs comes off.

You can certainly tape up the blade to prevent scratches from the swarf.  You really don't have to tape the whole blade, just the spine.  You also learn over time to control the runoff a bit.  Personally I consider my kitchen knives, even the expensive ones, to be tools and I don't pay much regard to the polish of the hagane, just the jigane.  But I can see why it would bother a person.

The WEPS is a good sharpener, and will definitely get the job done.  Horses for courses.

[Ericus Rex]

Lots of great info here! 

And Greg, don't put your knives in the dishwasher.

[gregcss]

Wow, it's been almost 2 years. I finally got a sharpening process down and I went with Edge Pro. Results are great. I have the EP 220 and 400 stones and got a 1k shapton glass stone. I plan not to use the EP stones and add either 500 and 4k or 4k and 8k shapton glass stones very soon.

I still have the same Calphlon knife, but it cuts sooo much better now. As for a new knife I am looking at the 210mm gyutos below. Without handling a Wa handle I dont know if I would like it or not, but I am interested in trying it.
 
Gesshin Uraku
Tanaka VG-10
MAC Pro
Masahiro MV

[S Clark]

I use the 4 and 8K Shaptons and have been pleased.  I'd also recommend a leather or balsa and a bottle of diamond or CBN solution.   I typically start sharpening at 1K, and try to not let them get truly dull between touch ups.