[azryan]

Having just seen the 2nd ‘vol’ of Kill Bill I really feel it should have just been one film.

After seeing the first one it seemed like Q.T./Miramax guys were right in cutting it in two ‘cuz it seemed like it was all going to be worth seeing and a shame to edit so heavily so much good footage just for the sake of being ‘short enough’.

I change my mind having now seen the ‘2nd’ half.

Boring, long, pointless dragged out B&W ‘wedding rehearsal’ scene right off the bat. The exact opposite of what you want an action film to start out like.

Ok... cool that it was yet another ‘style’ of film quality which was a clever original element of this whole project, but IMO it was just there to show Caradine when he’d hardly be in the film otherwise.

I think Caradine’s real cool so it’s not like I’d feel happy to edit that whole section out... but I’d do it anyway for the sake of pacing and it’s worthlessness to the story.

How did she decide on her fiancee’? How’d they meet? That could have been a weird scene too that could have been funny/interesting yet ALSO wrong for the film.
Who were her group of friends there? She had to have just met ALL these people a few months ago at the longest.

If none of that matters then just cut the whole B&W scene. What was in the first film was enough to know what happened there.

Perfect example of a great ‘deleted’ scene that you like when you watch it, but understand why it wasn’t right to actually be in the film.

The Sam Jackson cameo was a goofy distraction too, rather than the cool little funny addition I think Q.T. meant it to be.
Just pulls you out of a movie to see a famous actor/director’s friend in a little pointless cameo.
      
You could also lose the opening ‘recap’ if it were one film and man.... you could cut several of the half dozen end credit sections. Ugh... one’s enough and dim to see the credits for the people in the first film who weren’t in the 2nd half at all.

Shows Q.T. didn’t simply just make one film, but didn’t make two films either.

I was disappointed with almost everything to do with ‘Budd’ too. I like (crap, what’s the actor’s name?) as an actor.... but he just plays a dull dope in this.

What’s he doing out in the middle of ‘nowhere’ in a crappy trailer drinkin’ and getting fat and pushed around by a club owner boss when he was supposed to have been part of this elite killing squad and younger brother of the squad’s rich and still quite deadly and capable leader?

Either tell the story of what happened to cause Budd to fall SO low and lose it all or just edit most of his scenes and tedious story telling bits (something enough other characters got to do anyway. Q.T. sure thinks his dorky little stories he has characters tell are awesome).

And what was with Uma in the ninja mask?
1). She looked dumb in it and ‘cool looking’ was damn near the single main point of this whole film.

2). It’s not like she was trying to hide her identity since they were in the middle of nowhere w/ no one else around to see her.

3). It’s not like the black mask made her more ‘invisible’ in the night ‘cuz the rest of her outfit was not black at all. Either put her in ninja ‘outfit’ or ‘not’.

4). She just takes the goofy thing off right ‘before’ she strikes anyway?

Just dim.

Which leads right to my biggest problem of the whole film...

She gets shot in the chest w/ a friggin’ shotgun!!!

Ok... YES..., the entire film is over the top.
Wildly so, but nothing else, even her getting shot in the head to kick the whole story off is as totally insane as this.

She’s hit point blank and thrown back many feet and has a chest full of blood.

After that she act like she was in a minor bar fight and heals up seemingly without needing to attend the wound at all!?

That one just went too far IMO.

Q.T. could have gotten the same result in another better way.
Maybe had her wearing something to mostly protect from the shot or have Budd hit her in the shoulder intending to ‘not’ hit her in a way that was so blatantly ‘surely fatal’.

Kinda goofy too that Elle seems to hate Uma’s character, yet brings a black mamba to kill Budd??

She acts like she just happened to find one and just learned about how deadly it was, yet both of them have to know that Uma’s code name was ‘Black Mamba’?

I guess Q.T. thought that it was clever that a black mamba kills Budd even if it wasn’t Uma -though how he did it was dumb and then ruined by the fact that Elle was left alive (which doesn’t make sense at all either).

This vol.2 really left me thinking it was FAR less well thought out than vol. 1 implied.    

Much worse offbeat/obscure music selection too than the first (normally a Q.T. classic element).       
Should have been one film and just gotten to the action with greatly shortened ‘story’ elements.

Then release a ~3hr. ‘Directors Cut’ that would give us everything that matters and edits the goofy and slow junk into ‘deleted bonus scenes’ (or seamless adding option).

[Hantra]

I LOVED this movie!  

Even better than the first, Vol. 2 stands on its own as a great film.

The only real problem I have with it is the fact that she is this trained killer and an expert in fighting, killing, weapoins, etc. . . And she doesn't know NOT to fling open a DOOR and stand IN FRONT of it.

[Tyson]

Shotgun was loaded with salt, not lead.  That's why she didn't die or even suffer much injury from it.  I imagine it would be quite painful though.

I disagree about the extra scenes being pointless.  Those extra scenes are what give weight to an action movie.  Without character building, all you have is mindless action.  I'll take Kill Bill v1 and v2 or Collatoral over I, Robot  or Chronicles of Ridick anyday.

[azryan]

Salt in the shotgun huh?

Damn, I missed that.

But what’s the diff if lead or salt.

Both solid objects moving at the same velocity right? Shoulda kilt her just the same since it’s impact had the same force to make her fly back like I’d ‘assume’ a normal shotgun would.

I could see if the shots were packed with less gunpowder but didn't seem to be.
Like how an icicle could kill ya if you got stabbed with one. It’s not made of steel and even melts in your hand if you just hold it.

-I disagree about the extra scenes being pointless.-

Ok... ‘why’?

-Those extra scenes are what give weight to an action movie. Without character building, all you have is mindless action.-

That’s a generality though. And one I totally agree with BTW.

What was saying was that the stuff I was specific about didn’t add to the story at all and in fact damaged the pacing and just flat out didn’t work real well.

I had zero prob. with the idea of Kill Bill being ~4 hours and two parts. I was just surprised with how much stuff that was useless to the story was in the 2nd one.

Hantra saying KB2 stands on it's own is an angle that I didn't really even consider since that was never it's intention at all.

I'd might consider it better if I look at it that way, but I don't think I can.


Can you guys debate me about the value of that pointless, dull opening B&W scene or why it’s fine that it’s a total mystery why Budd’s ‘big fall’ isn’t explained, BUT the pointless, dull, further dragggged out scene with him getting told off at work belonged in the film??

Character simply 'doing and saying stuff' isn't enough justification for a scene. That alone doesn't justify this 'filler' in this action flick IMO.


“-I'll take Kill Bill v1 and v2 or Collatoral over I, Robot or Chronicles of Ridick anyday.-“

I haven’t seen the other three films but I think I can assume you’re totally right about the level of writing between them all.

But look at Kill Bill 1.... there’s very little character development in that.

I couldn't imagine there' more than the Riddick flick?

It’s not that kind of film. And it worked perfectly IMO in what it was trying to be. It was FAR more about pace and style. Just enough 'story' to let you follow along.

KB2 didn’t follow through the same way though and IMO could easily be edited to still have all the story elements that actually moved the film along and any character development that mattered left in and be made as one film.

I didn’t hate Kill Bill 2 at all, but I do think it needed editing for sure.

I think the problem was the initial mess Q.T. made of this in that he filmed WAY too much. He didn’t pare the story down to what mattered and then he had to rearrange some scenes and make the action and story elements of one film ‘imbalanced’ by making it two films.

Again.... some of the goofy things in it too like Sam Jackson's bit and the odd black mamba thing and Uma leaving Elle alive and 'what happened to Budd?'...

Stuff the story bother to show but doesn't make sense. Cut that and you'll get the pacing of the first one.

[Hantra]

Can you guys debate me about the value of that pointless, dull opening B&W scene or why it’s fine that it’s a total mystery why Budd’s ‘big fall’ isn’t explained, BUT the pointless, dull, further dragggged out scene with him getting told off at work belonged in the film??

Well man, the B&W scene was necessary b/c it showed what we all suspected.  That Bill was present at the wedding, and it showed their relationship in more detail, thereby giving us more insight into all the feelings between them.

Budd's big fall isn't explained because it doesn't need to be.  And the scene you are talking about where he gets told off, was absolutely necessary because it drove home the point of just how low Budd had fallen.

[azryan]

Oh yeah....

Good point Hantra about how dimmly she open that door. Totally agree. And happens right in-between the goofy ninja mask bit and the confusing salt shotgun blast too.

[Tyson]

I think the Bud stuff is a nice counterpoint to the other characters that are killed.  Here is a guy down and out, and he gets the closest of any of them to actually killing beatrix.  The one guy everyone figures beatrix can take out without breaking a sweat.  Plus, from his whole "we deserve to die" comment, he's obviously dealing with some guilt issues, to put it mildly.  That's underscored by the fact that he works at a place where he is treated like dirt.

I liked the chapel scene a lot, it shows the lengths that beatrix was willing to go to in order to protect her child.  By showing how inane here fiance and his friends were, shows what she was willing to accept in order to get a way from Bill and his crew.  Of course Bill showing up and the things that are unspoken in that scene add a LOT to their relationship, and gives meaning to his phrase "This is me at my most masochistic".

[Hantra]

T:

That was my favorite line I think:

"That woman deserves her revenge.  And we deserve to die."

Awesome. . .

[azryan]

“-I think the Bud stuff is a nice counterpoint to the other characters that are killed.-“

That’s a good way to look at it but IMO it doesn’t actually work out that way.

“-Here is a guy down and out,-“

Again... ‘why’ is he down and out? Don’t you care to know? No one else who was part of the group changed like that.
Well... we never got any story about that ID4 chick. Like if she was both a homemaker and still a hired killer or what but certainly not down and out like Budd.

“-and he gets the closest of any of them to actually killing beatrix.-"

I think everyone got about as close. They all thought they could kill her in their own ways and intended to, but she beat them all by being just a little better. Budd's shotgun blast and burial is just the same IMO as the others.

Not any closer to killing her 'cuz he meant to and didn't.

"-The one guy everyone figures beatrix can take out without breaking a sweat.-“

But ‘everyone’ is only all of two people?

Only Elle and Bill have anything to do with Budd right (that we see in the film, for you to say what you said)?

Elle looked down on Budd but I didn’t get that from Bill.

It was just something people might infer to themsleves since Budd looks like a loser and Bill’s still at the top of his game but Bill doesn’t actually DO or SAY anything to make it look like he’s sure Budd’s gonna get killed easy right?

Bill asked him how his swordplay was is about it. And ‘why’ 'cuz Bill and everyone use guns too (which is what Budd chooses to use) to kill people so who cares if he can beat her with a sword?

Then Budd lies about selling his sword... ‘why’???? Don't bring it up if it doesn't matter or is not explained.

Why isn't Budd rich? Did he gamble it all away or something generic like that?

Don’t bring up this weird stuff that the audience ‘has’ to question and then ignore it like it’s not important. If it’s not important then 'cut it'.

Can’t have it both ways. That’s just not good writing.


 “-Plus, from his whole "we deserve to die" comment, he's obviously dealing with some guilt issues, to put it mildly. That's underscored by the fact that he works at a place where he is treated like dirt.-“

I could see why you think that, but to me it didn’t look that way.

All he said was that ‘they deserve to die’. He didn’t say it like he felt he (and everyone else in the group too then) are the scum of the Earth.

IMO, 'cuz he plain and simple 'tried to kill her'. And why Bill seemed fine with him saying it. Just logic.
And eye for an eye.

A theme Q.T. literally used in that film elsewhere right?   

Remember Budd then says something like ‘-but she deserves to die too’.

They’re ALL ‘killers’ is all that means.

And he doesn’t just try to kill Uma/Bride/Beatrix/Black Mamba/ BLEEEP.... he tries to kill her in a horrible torturing way.

Hardly a man who felt he’d done her so wrong and is merely trying to keep himself alive. Which is what you’re saying him living in filth implies?

What if he did just gamble his money away and doesn't hate himself for trying to Kill Uma at the chappel?

Elle wanted her tortured, but she wasn’t there to see Uma buried alive so not like Budd couldn’t have just killed  her and told Elle she was buried alive.

He was pretty stupid to trust Elle and that money deal too.

I mean who didn’t see that coming? I didn’t guess HOW... but I’m sure we all guessed Elle was gonna kill Budd.

That Elle used a black Mamba (Uma's code name) is goofy too. No one noticed that?
Or you thought it made sense when she hates Uma -seemingly 'cuz she acts like she hangs on Bill's every word and Bill loved Uma instead and Uma was the better killer etc...


And no one thinks it doesn’t make sense that Uma doesn’t kill Elle when she meant to kill everyone else incl. Bill who she had also loved???

It looked like she never even liked Elle.

People can live blind. It was weird for her to be spared and left her with all that money too.
Obviously Q.T. just thought that would be ‘cool’ but not well thought out IMO.

Maybe if he would have flashed this clip at the end of Elle gathering up all this bloody money, zipping the bag closed and then getting bit by the black mamba right when it looks like she's gonna leave that'd made it work better.

Total revenge for Uma/black mamba, lets Elle suffer before she dies, and make a funny little end clip.

It’s like you guys think he could write/film anything and do no wrong?


“-I liked the chapel scene a lot, it shows the lengths that beatrix was willing to go to in order to protect her child. By showing how inane here fiance and his friends were, shows what she was willing to accept in order to get a way from Bill and his crew.-“


But Q.T. didn’t explain how she ended up there with those stupid friends/fiancee so it leaves you wondering about that stuff ‘cuz they bother spotlighting all those pointless people.

Whereas the first Kill Bill explained enough that she was going to marry someone else and was hiding from Bill.

They didn’t show the cars pull up in KB2 either when the gang arrived to kill everybody. I thought that was in KB1 but I forget.

The B&W scene was way too long.
Could have if anything kept some of her and Bill and made it FAR shorter and much better focus. Maybe one line from her fiancee just so we see he's a cork nobody and see her twit friends.

You could keep Bill's lines like -"This is me at my most masochistic".

Which doesn’t really make sense ‘cuz he’s already called in his team to kill everyone. That’s ‘sadistic’.

So what... talking with her a little bit beforehand is so ‘masochistic’?

He already knew she was there, pregnant, should have known who she was getting married to or he couldn’t have tracked her to that wedding rehearsal.

If he didn’t know the fiancee owned a record store (goofy) he knew that Uma hardly knew him and they were nobodies.

Just typical Q.T. ‘cool’ one-liners. It’s getting ‘old’ IMO. A thousand ‘cool’ one-liners are no longer each that ‘cool’.

[Ears]

There is reference in the film that Bud and Bill had a falling out of some sort, so obviously this is why Bud is no longer an assasin.

Whith the movie already being long, I see no reason why they needed to dig deeper into what happened to Buds life.

The mask that Uma wore, was to conceal the fact that she was hiding under the trailor, waiting for Bud.

[ooheadsoo]

I hated the first movie but I liked the second because I didn't get the first one, but when I watched the second, I realized that it was all a total spoof.  It wasn't supposed to make sense so I stopped trying to make it all work.  After that, everything turned out A-OK.  By the way, Bud's in death valley (I recognize the place) but I think in the film they're all in Texas or something?  I saw a California license plate in the Bud scenes too.  It's just not supposed to make sense. The movie is a comic spoof.

[Jon L]

I greatly preferred vol. I to vol. II, but I wouldn't call vol I a masterpiece or anything.  It just had a lot of Japanese/Samurai spoofs that were hilarious.  The villains in vol I were also more interesting than vol II.  

The hospital rape scene was tumbling-on-the-floor hilarious.  

Vol. II just whimpered in and finished without any true action/tension.  

Tarantino should have edited out a few scenes out of vol I, select a few choice scenes to add from vol II, and made one movie.

[Hantra]

I wouldn't call vol I a masterpiece or anything.

In my opinion, both these films were masterful, and some of the best movies of our time.  Refreshing, considering what else is coming from the big movie houses these days.

[Andrikos]

By the way, Bud's in death valley (I recognize the place) but I think in the film they're all in Texas or something?  I saw a California license plate in the Bud scenes too.  

No, they did mention he was in California.
The wedding massacre scene was in El Paso TX.

I was a bit disappointed with Vol. 2
Although it was "talkier" than the 1st one, it dragged in quite a few places.
QT's true strength is quirky, intelligent, funny dialogue/monologue (Pulp Fiction is a prime example of this).
In KBII, it seems, he tried too hard to make it intelligent, and it dragged quite a bit.
I enjoyed it but it's not QT's best movie IMHO.

[ooheadsoo]

Hm, I totally missed any mention of California.  Oh well.  These are the first QT movies I've seen and I must say I'm not overly impressed.  The dialogue in the first movie struck me as some of the worst and most stilted I had ever encountered but I admit I was trying to take the first movie seriously when I watched it.

[Johng316]

I loved both of these films.  I wasn't expecting to like them at all.  I generally abhor slasher films and ultra-bloody violence.  I hated "From Dusk Til Dawn," as that still tops my list of most vile films ever put through my eyes.

All that said, I loved these films.

It took me a while to figure out why I kept wanting to watch Vol 1 more than once.  I was drawn to it.  I think the answer lies in VERY DEEP CHARACTERS.  Surprisingly deep, all around.  I loved the character development in these films.  Budd was a standout enigmatic character.  I thought he might let her go, or even join as an ally, but he ends up burying her alive for money.  Each character was incredibly deep.

LOVED what happened to Elle Driver.  She got what she deserved.  

The wedding rehearsal scene was needed, IMO, to help us understand Bill's motivation.  I thought it was essential to the character development, which was the strongest suit of the film.

I loved this movie because it made me think about the characters.  I thought about them for days after seeing the movie.  There are VERY FEW films that I reflect on for days afterward, and this was one.

The ending of Vol 2 was anti-climactic and not at all what I was expecting.  I remain disappointed.  It would've been better if there was a more drawn-out and climactic battle between Kiddo and Bill, and THEN she hits him with the secret weapon.  I did like the last words, however, before he died.  That was wonderful.

John

[azryan]

ooheadsoo,

The film wasn’t a ‘comic spoof’ though there was an over the top comic element to action and certain lines of dialouge (but more-so in the first half). But also parts intended to be serious.

It wasn’t your ‘typical’ film at all but a ‘comic spoof’ makes it sound like it was all just goofy and silly like slapstick.

Cannonball Run it wasn’t. hehe

Mostly it did make sense and there was a clear story there. Simple and straightforward and the assorted styles of action were from diff. types of action movies and film quality that Q.T. wanted to show off in one film and to a higher level of quality than the typically low budget films where you see that sort of action.

Pretty clever that element of it. No one’s done that before.

“-By the way, Bud's in death valley (I recognize the place) but I think in the film they're all in Texas or something? I saw a California license plate in the Bud scenes too. It's just not supposed to make sense.

Wha-??

What’s your point about Texas anyway? You didn’t make one that I could see.

Anyway... Death Valley is in CA so it makes sense to see a CA plate. But any plate can be in any state.

Elle was at Budd’s so we never see where she lives but it doesn’t matter at all to the story.
It’s good enough that we assume she lives someone and we figure it’s not a crappy trailer since she’s got a million bucks on hand to give away for a sword.

That ID4 chick was probably in CA too and it should be obvious that O-Ren wasn’t in CA nor TX.

I’m debating some little points about the 2nd half that I had a prob with but overall I really liked the bulk of what he did.

I just don’t think you 'get' the films at all. What he was trying to do.

There is reference in the film that Bud and Bill had a falling out of some sort, so obviously this is why Bud is no longer an assasin.

'Cept for Elle still taking orders from Bill religiously... the whole group seemed to have disbanded and gone their sepp. ways. It appeared that three of them were no longer hired killers (O-Ren, Budd, and that ID4 chick).

They shouldn't bring up a 'falling out' as part of the story if they're not going to explain it at all.

And a 'falling out' is not a good enough answer to explain Budd being dirt poor either.
I mean maybe the that ID4 chick and O-Ren had a falling out with Bill too and why this group disbanded? Who knows though.

Whith the movie already being long, I see no reason why they needed to dig deeper into what happened to Buds life.

Exactly... Q.T. shouldn't have included things that really demand explanation like 'why is Budd so down and out'.
Or if he wanted it that way I assume Q.T. had a reason in mind for Budd's trailer situation. They should slipped that in quickly at least.

We don't need to be told why that ID4 chick wanted to be a housewife... she had a child (same thing Uma wanted to do).

We don't need to be told why O-Ren wanted to lead this majior crime family. Power and weath.

What I'm mainly saying is that there are already parts in this that shouldn't have been in there and made the 2nd half too long.

The mask that Uma wore, was to conceal the fact that she was hiding under the trailor, waiting for Bud.

That she was hiding under the trailer in the shadows was to conceal that she was there.
Ok... 'extra hidden' with the mask on? I'll give you that one.

Goofy looking though and she was plenty hidden without it and clearly it didn't hide her anyway. hehe

[azryan]

It took me a while to figure out why I kept wanting to watch Vol 1 more than once.  I was drawn to it.  I think the answer lies in VERY DEEP CHARACTERS.  Surprisingly deep, all around.

You're kidding right?

Let's look at the first vol....

What do you know about that ID4 chick? She's a mom and was a killer. That's not that deep.

You learn O-Ren's bio. in a cool looking anime clip but she's not deep either (the most character development of them all though).

You learn next to nothing about Bill or Uma -other than she lost a kid and wants everyone from her 'team' to die.

You can assume there must be a lot of depth under all that, but you don't actually see it in the film.

Elle has zero depth. She's a ruthless killer. loyal to Bill, and jealous of Uma. That's about it.

If you think these characters were incredibly deep I can't imagine how you describe a film where the point is actual character development.

It must blow your mind -the astounding black hole of massive depth.

Say a film like Cold Mountain or Dances with Wolves to make a specific point for you.

Kill Bill ain't near this level of character depth man. Sorry... no way in hell.

LOVED what happened to Elle Driver. She got what she deserved.

Uma (and Budd) both thought everyone deserved to 'die'.  

Though being blinded is gotta be horrible she can still live the rest of her life. Everyone else died a horrible death. Do you really consider blindness worse than death? I bet I know which you'd choose if given the choice. No?

The wedding rehearsal scene was needed, IMO, to help us understand Bill's motivation. I thought it was essential to the character development, which was the strongest suit of the film.

I suggested they could have left in some parts with Bill and Uma. Most of that loooong scene dragging the film down at the opening ('cuz it wasn't 'meant' to be the opening of the film. It was suppose to be the middle) could have been cut.
Her and her fiancee' and mall rat friends. The parents babbling. Sam Jackson's pointless, distracting cameo.

None of that was character development at all. 'Cept for all those pointless characters who die right after and are totally pointless.

Hell, Uma doesn't even seem to care in the least that her finacee died much less anyone else right?

It'd be like one of them taking a taxi somewhere and having the taxi driver tell some long goofy story or talking about his family or something having nothing to do with driving the story forward.

If the driver's babbling say made the main character totally pissed off -like it was the annoying straw that broke the camel's back in a long chain of events for the main character then that'd at least be a passable but weak excuse for it to be in the story.

None of that junk in the chappel scene did that sort of thing. Not really even Bill's part more than maybe a few lines at best.

I loved this movie because it made me think about the characters.

Probably mostly 'cuz they don't actually tell you much about them but they all did very interesting things and so you'd like to know more. That's not the same as character depth though.

That's like a celebrity that you see perform and want to read about in People.

I think everyone expected a huge fight at the end with Uma and Bill. Caradines's REALLY old though so not shocking that they didn't have a big one on one battle.

But story-wise I think the point was not to keep one-uping the action scenes but to make it more well rounded. O-Ren and the Crazy 88 was the big action scene.

It made sense for this to go the other way w/ Bill esp. with him being BeeBee's (sp?) father (and a real one it seemed).

Much better that it was just a sad quiet ending that Bill accepted.

Think of the ending to the Good, Bad, and the Ugly. Perfect ending but far from the most action in the film.

I'm sure those sorts of endings were what Q.T. intended to mimic rather than modern H'wood blockbuster action fests where the ending HAS to be the biggest. Generic crap.

The dialouge and truth serum thing was not that good though IMO.  Again... too drawn one. They're talking, then they're talking somewhere else, then they're talking somewhere else.

Too much and drawn out for an ending in a film that's too long. It also repeated some of the sentiment/ideas from the chappel scene so one or the other was redundant to the story IMO.

[Hantra]

A real sleeper in the first movie was Sonny Chiba.  I thought he did a fantastic job!

[Hantra]

Hantra,
Sonny Chiba rocks! My girlfriend's last name is Chiba, and in about 3 weeks, baby Rion Chiba will be born.    

Ohh dude!  Congrats!!!!!  

I agree that Pulp Fiction is his best to date.