[jgubman]

Getting ready for my next upgrade and have decided it's time to kick up my preamplification a notch. I currently have an integrated HT/2 channel system. 2 channel chain is: BPT-1 Ultra -> Denon 3800 -> Outlaw Audio 950 HT pre/pro -> CineNova Amp -> VMPS RM-40.

I definately feel strongly that in 2-channel mode (via Outlaw's "analog bypass" feature) the Outlaw has an unacceptably high noise floor, poor dynamics and a constricted soundstage. Music also seems to have a "grainy" feel to it.

Now, my upgrade goals are in this order:
1) improve 2-channel sonics
2) improve HT sonics
3a) add SACD to the mix
tied w/ 3b) get the "latest and greatest bells and whistles" in HT (PLIIx, IEEE, HDMI/DVI), etc.
and a distant 4) keep it simple in one box

Budget is $4k MAX.

Given the ever changing nature of HT, should I just stick w/ my Outlaw (which I'm really not that unhappy w/ the HT performance of) and get a nice analog preamp, like a Pass X2.5 or a Levinson 38S, and use the remaining $2k on a source player?

Are there any HT pre/pros out there that can equal a good analog preamp (bryston sp1.7???)?

For those of you who are integrating your systems, what are you doing?

[Marbles]

Get the best 2 channel pre you can find (with HT bypass feature).  Then you can upgrade receivers or pre/pro's, while keeping the 2 channel pre.

I use the Bent transformer based passive pre for 2 channel (less than $1500 or so) and a B&K REF50 (less than $2000).

The SP1.7 is supposed to be very good for 2 channel as well as the Arcam FMJ 8.

As mentioned, I would get a great 2 channel and a lesser expensive receiver with all the bells and whistles.

[StevenACNJ]

I run my HT 5.1 system for music & HT

I have had the following pre/pro's

1. Outlaw 950 - was first seperate pre/pro & was ok
2. B&K Ref 50 - better sounding than #1
3. EAD TheaterMaster Signature 8 - much better sounding than 1 or 2
4. Lexicon MC 12 - blows em all away

Each processor upgrade yielded better sonics.

If you check AudioGon you might find a good deal on a used EAD TheaterMaster 8800 or 8000 Pro model pre/pro. Should be about $3K or less and are very nice sounding. Will kill your Outlaw.

[Levi]

Getting ready for my next upgrade and have decided it's time to kick up my preamplification a notch. I currently have an integrated HT/2 channel system. 2 channel chain is: BPT-1 Ultra -> Denon 3800 -> Outlaw Audio 950 HT pre/pro -> CineNova Amp -> VMPS RM-40.

I definately feel strongly that in 2-channel mode (via Outlaw's "analog bypass" feature) the Outlaw has an unacceptably high noise floor, poor dynamics and a constricted soundstage. Music also seems to have a "grainy" feel to it.

Now ...

If you can audition a Bryston SP1.7.  The SP1.7 sounded better than the Lexicon MCxx in 2ch-bypass mode.  Sorry Steven  The SP1.7 2ch by-pass mode is infact a BP20/25 preamp inside w/HT capability.  It is in it's class of it's own.

Here is Bryston SP1.7 Philosophy straight from Bryston ca:
MEMO: To All Bryston Customers
SUBJECT: SP-1.7 Philosophy


The SP-1.7 is a unique product, in that we decided very early on to optimize it for sound quality - either Analogue or Digital.

There is NO video switching on board as video switchers operate at very high RF frequencies which plays havoc with the noise floor of the audio. Video is also changing as we speak - composite vs S-video vs component vs Firewire etc. The other thing to remember is like amplifiers, video switchers have different quality levels and I think allowing the quality of the video switcher to match the rest of the system is better served with and outboard video switcher. We are planning on offering our own outboard video switcher (SPV-1) in the next year which will connect to the R232 port on the rear of the SP1.7. The other option available is to switch video at the TV or Projector as most TV's and projectors now have plenty of video connections provided internally and use a Universal Remote to switch audio and video together.

There are also NO Digital Power Supplies (2 toroides - 1 for analogue circuit and 1 for digital circuit) in the SP1.7 as the Digital switching supplies are also RF generators. The volume control has 2 parts to it - one analogue and one digital so analogue signals do not pass through any digital circuitry. Some processor's say 'bypass' but in fact use the DAC's to raise and lower the volume level. The movie recording standard in the industry at this point is 5.1/48Khz/24 Bit (in fact most movies are released in 44.1K/16Bit The DVD Video industry is 5.1/48K/24bit and as I understand it will remain that way because of the 'data rates' (9.6 Mbpersec maximum) available on DVD Video discs. In other words when you put Video and Audio on the same disc there is only so much storage and decoding speed available. Every major movie-scoring engineer I have discussed this with says that 5.1/48K/24bit is the recording standard used at this point and probably will remain so for a long time to come.

If we look at the DVD Audio side then there are standards, which include a number of options available to the recording engineer from 44khz up to 192khz or combinations thereof. Some DVD-A engineers I have spoke with say they may use very high resolution 192 in the front 2 channels for instance and lower resolution for center and surrounds (again because of the 'data rates' of the disc). Word at the studio level is that 96/24 will become the standard. The other issue is that all of the DVD Audio players and SACD players only offer 'Analogue Outputs' so what you really need is a 6 channel analogue preamp not a digital processor. Added to this complication is the fact that the 6 analogue outputs on the current DVD Audio players 'bypass' the bass management controls you have in your processor. The latest DVD players I have used have some bass management capability and I suspect this will become more common place in the future. The issue is that bass management has to be accomplished in the 'Digital' mode so processors that offer bass management from the 5.1 analogue outputs from DVD Audio and SACD players have to convert the analogue back to digital to do the bass management then back to analogue again to output to the amplifiers. Not a good idea.

Our assumption is once they solve the copy code issues (if ever) DVD Audio and SACD will offer some sort of digital bit stream out and then the processors could use the internal DACs to decoded them. The minimum number of connects to provide DVD Audio out will be 3 RCA type (because of the bandwidth required) and may in fact end up being some new type of connector all together (ex: Firewire).

The SP-1.7 was designed to provide state of the art 'audio' playback for 2 or 5.1 channel analogue playback or digital 5.1 to 7.1 movies. If you want state of the art sound you will certainly appreciate the SP-1.7.

Cheers-Levi

[Bingenito]

I had a B&K ref 50 and sold it after 3 months for the same reason as the Outlaw- It was noisy.

Also I did not think it did any better job in DD and DTS processing then my former Denon 3803.

After listening to just about every pre/pro for 2 channel and HT in that order I purchased the Krell HTS 7.1. The difference was apparent right out of the box. SACDs sounded so much better then with the B&K. I am not knocking the Ref 50 it costs less then 1/2 of the Krell.

To answer your question I would say the Krell is a high quality preamp and just happens to do an outstanding job with movies.

If you like unltra clean detail I would get a pre-owned unit if you can.

The Krell with Sim amps and an Esoteric DV50 get the job done for me.

[Marbles]

I had a B&K ref 50 and sold it after 3 months for the same reason as the Outlaw- It was noisy.

 ...

When I first got mine it was noisy too.  Then it went back to the factory and it came back pretty quiet.

I don't use mine for two channel because IMO it sucks for two channel as every pre/pro or receiver has that I've tried.  It is an HT only pro for me...

On the other hand, I haven't found another 2 channel pre that I like as well as my Bent either, so maybe that's not fair to the pre/pro's......

[jgubman]

Thanks for the input guys.

Steven, I thought about the EAD, problem is it really doesn't have enough inputs, and I don't like their whole balanced/unbalanced choice. It is a world-class pre/pro by all accounts though. The Lex is out of my budget.

Levi, the Bryston is exactly the choice I'm wrestling w/. Get the Bryston or get a analog preamp. Do you feel that the SP1.7 is every bit as good as the BP25A? Have you ever gotten a chance to do a head-to-head? Also, another fear I have w/ the bryston is I'm afraid (prehaps wrongly) that it's near the end of it's life-cycle. Is the SP1.7 a SP1 w/ two extra channels added and newer processor/DSP chips? Also, how much do upgrades cost w/ the SP1.7?

Bingenito, the HTS7.1 is a little over my budget, a showcase would fit better. Have you ever compared that pre/pro? Also, have you ever gotten a chance to compare the HTS to a high-quality analog preamp?

Marbles, I'm kinda of w/ your line of thinking. I haven't ever really owned or demo'd a real high-end pre/pro in my system, but every HT pre/pro I've tried haven't been the last word in preamplification. I like the flexibility of having my analog and digital processing separate and then just keep upgrading my HT pre/pro every X years when new bells and whistles are out.

Thanks guys.

[mcgsxr]

I know that guys here swing a pretty thick wallet on gear, at times, but I will share my experience, at the low end of the used market...

I have a passive PS Audio IV preamp, and a B&K AVP1000 pre/pro.  The B&K is an analog unit, from the mid 90's, and the PS unit is from the mid 80's.  I find them indistinguishable for 2 channel use, when the B&K is set to the "Direct" mode, which essentially bypasses all surround circuits, and goes through the volume.

Since they sound the same to me, I use the B&K (remote, and allows for basic surround for my wife).

I know that you are searching higher up in the market, but I thought I would toss my answer out, since at this price point (US$100ish) the pre/pro is the equal of the 2 channel preamp.

Good luck with the hunt, and please do share what you decide on...

Mark in Canada

[witchdoctor]

Many reviewers have praised the Sunfire TG3 as being both a great  HT processor and an audiophile pre-amp with tube like qualities:

 Perhaps most important of all, the TGIII is a super-sounding audiophile preamp as well as a great home-theater processor. Highly recommended.  ( Wes Marshall )

You can read more of the reviews at ecoustics.com.

[Bingenito]

Glad you had better luck then I. My Ref50 came back the same as when I shipped it- NOISY

jgubman- sent you a PM

I am sure the Bryston is an awesome unit but not cheap. Used it costs about the same as the Krell HTS 7.1. You would have to listen to both and form your own opinion. All systems are different and people like different things.

The Sunfire TG3 or 4 are very nice and I would buy it over the Krell Showcase any day.