one year w/ analog

lcrim · « **on:** 18 Aug 2004, 07:34 pm »

I just checked and discovered that I bought my turntable w/ arm and cartridge just about a year ago. It is an older model Rega P3 with an SME 3009 Series III arm mounted. Along the way I upgraded the phono pre to a tubed model, an Antique Sound Labs Mini phono section and the cartridge to a Goldring 1012. I just installed the anti-skating weight and pulley assembly. I also had the help of Kevin Barrett of KABUSA in dialing in the setup and that was worth more than all the hardware improvements. I use this setup with my 2 Channel system below (Decware Select,AES AE-3, Parker 95 MKII's) and it sounds as good as anything I have auditioned. My record collection is growing at an enormous rate and a top player just seems justified
I am trying to talk myself into a big investment in high end analog and it is kind of scary. While I still listen to CD and SACD I can't help but turn to LP's after listening for a while. Yet the likes of Teres, Nottingham or VPI plus a good arm and cartridge and a really good phono section would be more than I have invested in the rest of the system. I have thought about this to the point that I've reached "analysis paralysis." So, I am looking for some experience based suggestions.
Thanks in advance

Marbles · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Aug 2004, 07:50 pm »

Every so often a used TERES or Redpoint comes up on Audiogon, in addition, expensive arms and carts can be had less expensively through 2Juki on Agon.

You can get rebuilt and new carts from Klaus Bunge (Odyssey) as well.

I say go for the upgrade!

Oh, if you are handy you can build a REALLY good phono pre, a Hagtech Cornet for around $500. You can buy one new for around $1K

woodsyi · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Aug 2004, 08:27 pm »

You know once the seed of upgrade is sown in you mind, it will geminate and grow and grow until you must upgrade. You can't avoid it. Just enjoy the "shopping" process. Don't ruin it by thinking of buyer's remorse ahead of time.

I don't have any experience with your quipment, but I know from experience that one upgrade usually leads to another upgrade because it will expose a (new) weak link in the chain. I would check around for other AC members in your area or a highend store to audition different TT setups. Most of these stores love to have you come in because they know you will be back for "upgrades" later if you get good service. I picked up my EAR 834P for $625 from one of these places. Another customer traded it in for a much more expensive unit. I may do the same later......

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Aug 2004, 08:49 pm »

What about buying a table now and transferring the SME arm to it for now, planning to upgrade to the arm of your choice in the future (and selling the Rega/SME at that time)?? You'd have to plan carefully so that you don't waste money on a temporary armboard that you just have to trash when you upgrade.

lcrim · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Aug 2004, 03:43 pm »

After some checking with Kevin, KAB can sell me whatever's the latest Technics 1200 version (33 & 45 only) with damping and separate power supply plus an Ortofon 540 MKII mounted. The price is a bit over $1000.
I don't know the cartridge and the stock tonarm has always been a question mark but I'm sure it would be a nice player.
The Zen SET amp requires a 2 volt signal for full gain, so a MM almost seems a necessity even with the gain from the phono pre and the preamp.
Any opinions on this combo?

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Aug 2004, 11:12 am »

The gain of the ASL phono is listed as 57 dB (which is quite high): KABUSA's own gain calculator suggests a 3mV cartridge (like the Ortofon) would mate best with a 41 dB gain phono.

Some posts on Audio Asylum suggest that the ASL doesn't REALLY have that much gain: I would have thought you would have had problems with the 6.5 mV Goldring.

lcrim · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Aug 2004, 02:29 pm »

The gain from the ASL is misstated in their specs. It is actually around 36 Db. The gain from their combined preamp and phono pre (MG phono DT) is also stated @ 57 Db yet the preamp section is said to have 21 Db gain. The Mini phono pre uses the 12AX7 tube, one per channel, which provide 36 Db gain in almost every other application you can find.
My preamp from AES provides 20 Db of gain. So combined the gain is around 56 Db. With the Goldring @ 6.5 mV the output through the combined units does not quite reach 2 volts but its close. One of the reasons for trying the Goldring was to get the gain to a level where the music was dynamic at a realistic level of loudness, which it now is. With a drop in output on the cartridge to 3 mV (Ortofon 540 II) there may be some concerns again about gain.
Digital playback IMO has an insistent quality that can become tiring after a bit but am I exchanging that for merely a softer, less accurate sound? I know what some think about this issue but I am not at all certain. The fact that belt drive TT's may induce speed inaccuracies and hence a softer, more romantic sound is a possibility.
Both systems I have put together seem to be limited by the source end of things. I am happy with the match between the power sections and the speakers but the sources, I think, could use improvement. I don't post much but I am an avid reader and I was hoping for some help on this.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Aug 2004, 03:27 pm »

Quote from: lcrim

Digital playback IMO has an insistent quality that can become tiring after a bit but am I exchanging that for merely a softer, less accurate sound? I know what some think about this issue but I am not at all certain. The fact that belt drive TT's may induce speed inaccuracies and hence a softer, more romantic sound is a possibility.

I'm not sure why you're calling digital "insistent" but implying that's it's somehow more "accurate" than analog??

As to table inaccuracies, what if the speed were slightly fast (as is sometimes claimed about the Rega)?? The result would be lively or PRATtish rather than slow and romantic. I had a Heybrook TT once and bought a spare belt just as a back-up since Heybrook no longer made the table. I hadn't felt anything was wrong with the table before, but when I tried the new belt (just as an experiment) everything moved towards the PRAT zone. Probably the old belt was a little stretched, maybe a little less tacky than a new one--maybe that was a softer, more romantic sound, but I don't think it's endemic to belt-drives.

lcrim · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Aug 2004, 04:26 pm »

I like the term"insistent" to describe at least Redbook playback in comparison to analog.
The question of accuracy is probably a moot point but one that I am repeating, as I am looking to improve my analog source and have read and heard this numerous times. Analog playback, despite occasional surface pops and clicks, sounds more like whatever "real" and "lifelike" reference I have in my head. Perhaps my reference is skewed. Whatever
Analog seems overall to aid in the relaxation that is a major reason for my listening to recorded music.
Speed inaccuracies in belt drive TT's are diificult to detect when not utterly gross. My point was that I might prefer analog because of that inaccuracy, something along the lines of tube amps sounding warmer and more liquid than solid state. But, again less accurate and therefore in some sense-less than.