[Peter J]

I’ll try to make this short and sweet, but, well you know…

I had been an all solid state guy until I got an Eastern Electric M-88 integrated a couple of years ago. Once installed in the living room system, I definitely got a feel for what is often referred to as “tube sound”. Needless to say, I was hooked, and happily lived with it and accompanying adjustment in usage style. I had an output tube fail and replaced with a quad of Black Treasures, then later it quit working altogether which turned out to be an input tube.

While M-88 was in shop getting diagnosed I put my old Musical Fidelity integrated back in and was soon remembering some things I like about the sheer convenience of SS gear. It stays on all the time, and I have no worries about tube life and ongoing replacement expense, but I missed the sound of the M-88.
This system is sort of a “whole house system” in that the room is kinda central to the house and often Jriver is just playing a random songlist to an empty room but can be heard throughout the house…my form of Musak, I guess. Perhaps 15-20% of play time is sitting in the room listening to system.

My dilemma is this; I’d like to have the lushness and fluidity of the M-88 and convenience and non-concern about racking up hours on tubes, not to mention heat, inherent to the Muscal Fidelity. This prompted me to think about how one might combine best of both worlds. Tube pre with SS amp seems like a possibility, but gets spendy real fast and can command a lot of real estate. An integrated like Rogue Pharaoh or similar that has tube input coupled to SS output looks interesting and space & cost effective, but does it do what I want? Dunno.
 
 Another possibility I considered is something like Ncore amps with tube pre, but again it’s uncharted water for me and if I’m gonna drop that much $$, I’d like to at least know someone has done same and liked it.

Ideally the whole venture would top out around $2K, with $3K being absolute top. Balanced inputs would be nice so I could utilize that feature on Wyred 4 Sound DAC 2. I’ll bet I’m not the first to cross this bridge and would appreciate the advice and comments of good folks here.

[avta]

I know exactly how you feel. I recently heard some Musical Fidelity equipment while auditioning some speakers and was quite impressed. You might see if you could hear this one:  http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/m6series/m6prx/   If you can let us know what you think.

[Ericus Rex]

The tube magic you love lives in the power tubes.  You won't get the same sound with any SS power amp, in my experience.  Even with a tube preamp.  If you just can't live with a tube failure every couple of years (not bad odds when you consider the poor quality of current production tubes) then maybe a tubed/classD combo is better for you.  Just don't expect it to sound like your M-88.

I've had good luck the with Gold Lion tubes.  I haven't heard of many failures with those.  Maybe some very careful tube purchasing will solve you problems...for a while.  But tubes do wear out and fail prematurely sometimes.  That's our boat in tube life.

[Thebiker]

There is a variety of hybrid integrated amps out there they have a tubed front end and a solid state amp section.  Gives the best of both worlds, the tubed pre puts out minimal heat and the solid state give you better bass control.

Personally, I prefer tubes all the way through, but you got to spend some $ to get tubes that give it all to you......initial expenses are high but I have gotten good tube life.  Just check bias regularly and you should be fine, it least it works for me.  JMHO & YMMV.

Good luck on your search.

[Captainhemo]

I hear what you are saying as well.  The hours add up fast on a set of tubes especially  if the system is on a lot  like it ounds like yours probably is.  I am in the same boat myself.  Even averaging say 8 hrs/day you're getting up to 3000 hrs/yr.  I know 8 hr/day sounds like a lot but if they systemn is used  throught the house by   different people, it is not   hard to do.
I've just picked up  a quad of the Fuller Canada EL34G's  from  Parts Connexion that  come with a 1 year  warranty (all Fuller Canada  tubes from PC have a 1 year warranty).   There was not a lot of info out there on these tubes but the bit of feedback I did get was all positive. So far (only a week of  time) I am extremely pleased. with the sound, I'll  go ito more detail once I get some more hrs on them.  If they hold up  like the warranty suggests,   I'l be even more pleased   
When I break  down the cost of a  set of thse tubes into a weekely basis,  it  is very little  if I am going to get a minimm 1 year oout of a  quad (hopefully more)

I've also looked at  hybrids (there is a Dodd Hybrid on the trading post right  now) but figured I'd give  the above a try first.  The other option like alredy mentioned , would be  a seperate SS amp  and tube pre  .  But again,  not sure you'll find that  tube sound  in a SS  amp especially at an attractive price point.

-jay

[jarcher]

I think you might be heading in the right direction with a hybrid like the Rogue Audio Pharaoh - or the lower powered Sphinx.  I've heard the latter last year and was quite impressed, more so than Peachtree Audio integrated amps, which would seem to be the most direct competition. 

If you're going to have it on and operating most of the day, I'm not sure any tube powered amp is going to give you the most efficient & hassle free option.  I don't know that I'd want to run any tube power amp 8+ hrs a day every day.  But as far as pure tube gear goes though, at your price point Prima Luna has a good reputation for ease of use / ownership (e.g. auto-biasing, support for many kinds of power tubes, etc). My rough recollection is that a Prima Luna integrated is going to sound a bit softer / lusher than  a Rogue Audio hybrid integrated.  Don't have personal experience with EE M-88 to advise which (PL or RA) is going to sound most similar.

You could always pair a tube preamp to a SS amp, though at somewhat greater inconvenience.  I use an older Conrad Johnson PV10 from the early 90's I picked up for maybe $700 used and I was stunned how much better it was than the fairly new high end Marantz AV processor I had been using.  Made even the Krell amp, which could be somewhat clinical, sound very musical. Maybe if your MF integrated has an "amp in" connection you could experiment with borrowed / demoed tube preamps to try out if you like what you hear.

[Peter J]

You know, I'd kind of dismissed the Sphinx for it's lack of balanced connections, but the more I think about it, it may be a way to get my feet wet in this arena without coughing up $$ for Pharaoh. Hmmmmm, gives me something to ponder.

On the other hand, I could just plan on tubes for the M-88 every year or so, although I occasionally wish for more power when there's no one else home and I want to crank it, which leads to the question of what I'd replace it with assuming I stick with an all-tube integrated. And yet more to  ponder...

Gotta love all the choices....eh?

[mulveling]

I have a lot more experience with Rogue's full-tube products, but I've at least heard a couple of their hybrids in passing (including the sphinx). They sound great! The sphinx does a really nice job driving Kingsound Prince panels. In my experience with Rogue:

• You'll get a lot for your money at the entry level, and the sonic ROI doesn't evaporate as you move up the line -- this holds pretty much all the way up to the flagship Apollo/Hera. Well, to be honest the Athena may be the relative "bargain" of the preamp line, as it clobbers the (very good) 99 Magnum and sounds an awful lot like the Hera II for 45% less. But given their usual pricing structure, I would expect the Pharaoh to have notable sonic advantages over the Sphinx.
• Their tube amps as well as the hybrids don't have a strong sonic signature (i.e. the tube amps are not dripping with warmth and sweetness) out of the box. They're very neutral, and feature excellent bass response. Fortunately, Rogue gear responds very well to tube-rolling, since they don't have a strong "voice" inherent in the circuit. And they engineer enough overhead in the right places, so you can do things like sub a 12BH7 in place of a 12AU7. I can get the bit warmth I crave by rolling in any of the following in my Apollos: RCA 12AX7, Mullard 12AX7 (long plates are not too warm, and have superb extension/clarity), RCA 12BH7 (the latter actually yields too much warmth in some configurations, so I use Sylvania instead)
• Rogue's current lineup of gear is extremely reliable (older models e.g. 88, M120 were cathode-bias and therefore threw off gobs of heat). The Russian Tung-Sol KT120 they ship with power amps are also rock-solid reliable; I'd trust those over any Chinese tube ever. Have had 3 quads in my Apollos now for almost 3 years and over 1000 hours with NO sonic degradation and rock-solid bias hold. I agree that for your situation it's wise to explore the hybrids. But, I think you'd have a longer run of trouble free operation with a Cronus Magnum and TS KT120, and vintage small-signal tubes than with a Chinese amp & tubes (some of the recents reports of Chinese power tubes are scary)

[JakeJ]

Just my .02

Since you have some of the equipment required what about setting two systems?  One solid state for the "Muzak" listening and the other a tube system for serious listening.  It would be best to set them up in different rooms but as long as the background music can be heard throughout the house it solves the problem.

[Peter J]

Thought I'd update on this topic since I was the one wanting input. I ended up buying a Musical Fidelity A6i. I deliberated on the Rogue, but in the end this deal was hard to pass up.

This takes everything that the A3 does and adds to it. I'm using with balanced input, I tried single ended but so far prefer the balanced. Iron grip on bass, layers upon layers of depth in the mids. Revealing without being harsh, it also has some balls if I want to crank it. I'm very satisfied for now and am content to keep this for a while.

I haven't ended my relationship with tubes, but for this setup and the time being, this is a wonderful new toy!

[JakeJ]

Pictures or it didn't happen! 

[Ericus Rex]

Did you get the EE fixed?

[Freo-1]

The tube magic you love lives in the power tubes.  You won't get the same sound with any SS power amp, in my experience.  Even with a tube preamp.  If you just can't live with a tube failure every couple of years (not bad odds when you consider the poor quality of current production tubes) then maybe a tubed/classD combo is better for you.  Just don't expect it to sound like your M-88.

I've had good luck the with Gold Lion tubes.  I haven't heard of many failures with those.  Maybe some very careful tube purchasing will solve you problems...for a while.  But tubes do wear out and fail prematurely sometimes.  That's our boat in tube life.

Especially with current production tubes.  That's why I went with the DIY approach, where one can make amps that use reliable and readily available NOS tubes like the the 1625/807 types. (and not break the bank for replacements). 



 

[Peter J]

Here's the proof, Jake





And yes Ericus, the EE is repaired and sitting in box looking forlorn. Turns out it was simple, a heater tube. I don't really know what that does, there's much about the principles of tube gear I don't grasp. I'll offer it up for sale at some point.

Freo, I'd be willing to try my hand at building amps, but don't have a foundation to design/build from, so would be building someone else's design. Can you give or link to more info on what you picture there? Looks wonderful!

[JakeJ]

Thanks for the photo.  Nice lookin' and it looks to be  a fairly simple setup?  Is that your DAC under the GR research LGK's?  I looked up the specs on the M6i.  Very nice.

[Peter J]

Thanks for the photo.  Nice lookin' and it looks to be  a fairly simple setup?  Is that your DAC under the GR research LGK's?  I looked up the specs on the M6i.  Very nice.

It's about as simple as I can make it for our living room although with the addition of CAPS server and W4S DAC 2 (bottom shelf) I went beyond my wife's interest threshold in learning to operate, she won't hardly mess with it now, but maybe that's OK. She has been known to turn it down a time or two, though, as the giant volume knob on the MF is its most prominent feature.

 LGKS are sitting on a Cary CD player. That whole desktop system with Topping amp and a little preamp will go away when my sister visits next month. I set it up so she can use her iPod as source and charge it at same time. Her desire, not mine, I'm the family audio nut...

[Freo-1]

Here's the proof, Jake





And yes Ericus, the EE is repaired and sitting in box looking forlorn. Turns out it was simple, a heater tube. I don't really know what that does, there's much about the principles of tube gear I don't grasp. I'll offer it up for sale at some point.

Freo, I'd be willing to try my hand at building amps, but don't have a foundation to design/build from, so would be building someone else's design. Can you give or link to more info on what you picture there? Looks wonderful!

The amps I have pictured were built by a good friend of mine, and sadly, that circuit is propriety.  However, send me a PM with your email address, and I can send you a couple of build projects.  One of them is called a Vixen, which is a tried and true design from Miles Prower from the DIY site.

[xsb7244]

From what I read, Miles Prower is a very smart guy. 

http://dolphin-hsl.blogspot.com/
http://www.dolphin-hsl.com/

price of Le Renard?
price of Vixen?

[xsb7244]

Read also lmpmon (Miles Prower) thread VT Amp Design Walk Through

http://www.hawthorneaudio.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2818

[roscoeiii]

Thought I'd update on this topic since I was the one wanting input. I ended up buying a Musical Fidelity A6i. I deliberated on the Rogue, but in the end this deal was hard to pass up.

This takes everything that the A3 does and adds to it. I'm using with balanced input, I tried single ended but so far prefer the balanced. Iron grip on bass, layers upon layers of depth in the mids. Revealing without being harsh, it also has some balls if I want to crank it. I'm very satisfied for now and am content to keep this for a while.

I haven't ended my relationship with tubes, but for this setup and the time being, this is a wonderful new toy!

Big fan of the higher end Musical Fidelity gear. Love my kW linestage and phono preamp. Nice burly power supplies on these babies. Run them into a Rogue Stereo 90 (Super Magnum edition).